Author Topic: State of the Bot Address  (Read 49755 times)

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reed23

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2013, 08:52:45 PM »
Hoss - I didnt answer your question.  My answer is - I play 2 characters because i dont have 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 1 hour, or 2 hours to sit around and wait for a group to form.  When i log, i want to be playable immediately.  If that is running a 2 man zone with my 2 guys, then that is it.  If there are a couple clannies on, we can run a 5 man zone.  I always played a main and a healer so other people could fill in the cracks and we could get going immediately.  I guess time is my concern.

fulloflife

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2013, 08:54:13 PM »
It's obvious that the botters enjoy it.

If you provided the technical know how to the people who don't currently bot, i bet they love it too.

Therefore if you want to make people happy, just allow everyone to bot.

Arctic should take a chance and experiment with it- look at how many times the PK system has changed- if you don't like it, then change it back.

What is so bad about taking a wipe to test out a new policy?

It's not like we weren't guinea pigs before- just go back to when robed mages were introduced and they were all super OP,especially nightmare which took 3 wipes to tone down.

Why not give it a chance? What's the big harm- do you actually have something to lose?

For the record, I bot because I don't have time to waste looking for a group. You think anyone would buy a game if it took half a hour to load on their PC?



« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 08:56:44 PM by fulloflife »

snax

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Root Cause Analysis -something I learned in school i think
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2013, 09:27:08 PM »
So, here goes.  Hoss you are looking for thoughts on botting, and to do that I'm going to put aside my preconceived notions and preferences and tack out a quick RCA, other people can throw their thoughts into it.

A foreword, root cause analysis is a system of getting to the "root" of the system problem, and takes blame out of the person and instead looks at how the system fails.  An employer can use this method in employee discipline, wherein the employee makes a mistake and every possible effort is expended to fix the system, not the person (caveat:  you still fire people who are recklessly negligent and high, and skip the process in instances like that)

So.  Here we have it:

People-------------------|---------------------Materials
Mortals                       |                   Computers
 .Carebear                  |                   Smartphones
 .Pk                             |                   Proxies/VPN
 .Zoner                        |                  Multiple Client Connection
   .Casual                    |                  Scripting
   .Hardcore                 |
Immortals                   |
  .High Access             |
  .Low Access              |
      .Casual                 |
      .Hardcore              |
                                   |
Environment-----------------------Method
 .online game              |                rule enforcement
 .fantasy                     |                consistency
 .pk allowed                |                equality/fairness
                                   |
Measurements-----------------------
. pklog / frequency     |
. IP connections          |
. Total connections      |
. time online                |
. forum activity            |
                                   |
                                   V
               Problem = Botting

sorry, my ascii art is going downhill these days.



snax

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Re: RCA thoughts
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2013, 09:30:46 PM »
So, really need to decide instead to build a better mouse trap, need to decide if the mouse is around.  Yes people are botting.  Yes it is against the rules.  No it is not possible to justly enforce botting rules.  So, I think redefining the problem and replacing the no botting rule with don't be an arsehole or you will be deleted.  I don't think i've seen that rule listed, but I'm sure over the years I've been an arsehole enough to get deleted a few times.

Now, instead of focusing on botting and pkill - you can instead focus on balancing out materials : rented equipment / equipment decay, and also pk frequency : don't be a trash arse who constantly takes out anyone and everyone whether or not your'e botting.

dunno, but maybe it's worth the spit it's written with.

eddiex

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2013, 09:49:17 PM »
I think there is a huge disadvantage to playing the game by the rules in arctic's current system.  Those who are multiing/botting currently have and will continue to do so, putting all of those who play by the rules at a severe disadvantage.  The idea that those people who know how to run a proxy server should be able to play multiple characters does nothing to address balancing the game for the entire arcticmud population.

Consider that in arctic's current state, people are illegally using bots/multis to both pk and zone.  Allowing the entire population to use two chars from the same IP is a step toward leveling the playing field.

When i have Multiplayed in the past, it is an entirely different experience of mudding and enjoyable in its own right.  For me, It isn't just about increasing zoning power, it is the dynamic of being able to play as 2 chars at once.  I don't share the same sentiment as some other multiers that I can never go back to playing just one char.  I have done that throughout the entirety of this wipe, I still enjoy the game, but it disgusts me that people are running around multiplaying and I cannot because i don't have proxy knowledge (something that isn't even directly related to the gameplay).

eddiex

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2013, 09:58:05 PM »
I think Snax put it best,  since policing botting is not an effective solution, Allow it and enstate don't be an Arse policy.  Can even create a forum section where you can post up people/chars who are arctic Public Enemies and if enough people chime in saying yes this person is being a bastard.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 09:59:43 PM by eddiex »

Super Tacoman

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2013, 10:26:22 PM »
how about drastically reducing group size along with allowing bots?  do you really need more than 6 anymore in this age of legendaries?

then you wont have to worry about someone botting a 10 man and rolling over everyone.  getting attacked by 6 is much more managable. 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 12:48:58 AM by Super Tacoman »

eddiex

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2013, 11:13:16 PM »
One more addition.  If botting/multiing is legalized.  I think limiting the #of specified classes in a group should be considered.  I remember on a chaos day having like 5 stunning tenting prisming botting mages.  The simplest script was able to let me destroy plenty of the 10 mans and ended up getting me deleted.  A common argument that pro-botting is saying that in pk it's not an issue because its difficult to orchestrate an assault.  Most of the times we have seen classes be called OP has been in situations where a single class is multiplied and used.
Ex: Hella tornado druids <finns>, 4 or 5 nightmaring blackrobes <apocs>, 3 or 4 animating legendary clerics <sobs>, bugged angering mtn scouts, could u imagine 4 or 5 legendary shamans with 20 - 25 spirits?

Aemon

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2013, 11:53:16 PM »
Hi, I'm a botter.

The one thing that makes this game differentiated from any other offering out there is that it's completely scriptable. I don't know why we would want to remove this point of distinguishment. There are certainly better PvE games and better PvP games than Arctic. But I know of no other game where you can have fun playing and as well have fun scripting, it challenges you on two levels.

If it's a crew of 3 bots, it's not me, it's probably the player of Qwine/Kip/Lulu, Eric, or a Finn. If it's just 2 bots, it could be anyone, from Daniel to the Danes.

I only zone with 8+ bots at a time. Many of you will try to crucify me or blame me unfairly for your deaths or the decline of Arctic. But I believe my experience uniquely qualifies me to contribute to this thread a unique perspective on the pros and cons of botting and as well their challenges.

For anyone who has tried botting, you will find it initially to be quite difficult.
If you have no scripting skills, it's a downright nightmare.
Basic scripting will allow you to scale to about 3 bots and as well your ability to find unique ip's.

To zone with a full bot crew of 8+ like I do, you need not only advanced scripting, but actual programming skills, not to mention acquiring the ip's necessary. My system didn't rely on proxies or VPN for IPs. Any imagined scenario where you have 30 people each running around with 10-man groups is not realistic since there are less than a handful of players who have the programming skills to script all classes and make them easy to manage. And many of these players who possess the technical skills have long left the game, like Martino or Lasse/Kimmo/Mika.

Simple tintin++ scripts won't suffice for a full 10-man bot crew.

My first crew of bots was:
 
Monika, Domahnugnuts, Gobarian, Tola, Casey, Hairesach, Savarin, Sullivan, Annabellee

My bot crew this wipe was:

Aemon, Yhonk, Monier, Royderage, Rhonda, Alanis, Hendo, Kog.

Additionally, last wipe, the cleric Riomar was running on my client scripts without benefit of my server code.

With my bot crew I have solo'd most of the major high level mobs and zones from Frostbyte, Argentine, to full Ravenshadow and maybe 15% of Blood Shoal. I was unable to conquer Sleet with 2 humans, and usually need another human operator when dealing with Amity/Warrior statue in Ancient. When Hoss paid me a visit to admonish me this wipe, I was soloing the Thane in Stone Bluff with 9 bots.

I've also been attacked and successfully defended attacks from PoG, Wild, and have fought in several of the larger scale skirmishes against dele and BiA this wipe.

My point is not to brag or boast, but moreso to give you a sense of the capabilities when you are on the extreme end of botting.
I may post some logs on Suf's in the coming days to show you a botter's perspective.

Many have argued whether playing with bots or humans is better.
I only started playing with bots a year ago because of the declining player base.
But since then, I've become spoiled by them and prefer playing with bots and my handful of friends (operators) who know how to use them.
If scripted properly, unlike with humans, you never have to worry about being rescued, bashing, getting healed, or being afk.
Additionally, you don't have to worry about people recalling during ambushes.
For better or worse, they fight with you to the death, which can lead to mass rips.
But cowardice is never an issue like it is with humans.

I used my bots to shepherd Maza through Cloud Kingdom, and as well led a group of Myth through Ravenshadow. I did make an effort to include small groups and booted bots for humans, even though my bots were stronger chars since they were legend and rank 30+. I also popped people's decays and performed CR's for people. I'm not saying I'm Mother Teresa, but I did go try to help as many people as I could who weren't whiners/complainers/carebears.

I think any suggestion of trying to find some magical number, ie. a 2 bot limitation is misguided. It would be an unenforceable nightmare to police. If you allow 2, you minus well allow 10.

The main thing is, to give Hoss a sense of control. The issue of whether bots are good or bad is not the issue. Hoss needs to feel like he has control over his sandbox. Maybe create one port where he can continue to be communist as Daniel would say, and let another port be free market (botting allowed). Bots unnerve him because he feels like he's lost control of Arctic. This is a person who likes to be in power and in control. My own personal suggestion is to just let next wipe be a wipe where the leadership lets anything go. Arctic is probably around for a couple more years before there's no playerbase for it to be viable and people have moved on. A separate port would be a middle-ground solution.

Minus well let Arctic die naturally or ask the current leadership to resign and step down. For myself personally, I could never go back to just 1 char. Even 8 felt constricted in all honesty since I never felt like I had enough bashers.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 12:17:37 AM by Aemon »

Hoodoo

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2013, 12:54:28 AM »
Time to weigh in on this issue, again.  Far from the first shot at it, for me. 

First, I have never botted, and I have never multi'd.  Why? See below.

I vigorously stand on the side of the anti-botters. Partially, it's for the same reason Anaya (I think!) stated, though not quite in these words: it's against the *bleeping* rules, so don't *bleeping* do it, you *bleeps*.   Simple reason, simply stated.  Don't be that guy. 

Games (and, indeed, most social systems) work because the administrators of those systems have created a set of rules which allow for fair and equitable play across the board.  Now, Arctic has always had an iffy history on this.  I've played since roughly '92-93 (I remember Hobbes), and in that time, well, some of the cheating was *notorious*.  The number of stories I heard about Shriners mudding from the server room, oloading pris wands, cheating characters and dominating pk, etc... it actually made me quit for a couple years in the mid-nineties, because I honestly felt that if I couldn't cheat, I couldn't compete.   I don't know the truth behind these rumors, though I would love to (esp. the one about what brought about the destruction of original Tarsis.. that was an odd rumor).  What I do know is that, in an environment where one has two or more levels of privilege, those people who are systemically disadvantaged will tend to either leave or attempt to become upwardly mobile in privilege. 

I don't want a system which rewards those people who are willing to ignore the rules of the game we play.  "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'" is NASCAR, not this place.  If the rules allow the playing of two characters, well, I happen to have 2 legends and another that's close. I can adjust and adapt, with the knowledge that I'm not being 'that guy'.  I can honestly say that, while I may not know as much of the MUD as others, every damned thing I learned was learned honestly, not through a determined attempt to undermine the social structure of the game in order to 'win' it.

No, that's not overstating the effects of bots over the last few wipes.  Since Reed (thank you for finally admitting you botted while ruining the afternoons of many people who just wanted to zone, and formed clans purely with that intention, by the way) and his cleric/barb bottastic duo started really showing the PK possibilities, bots have allowed 1 or 2 people to have a disproportionate voice in PK and clan politics.  With just 1 character to rely on, such level heads as Lottie, Bryton or Reed would never have been able to cause such mass destruction (specifically referring to the number of people those three have actively driven off the mud, with that stated purpose).  If others who actually give a shit about the rules had been allowed to retaliate in kind, we'd have been able to do much more to fend them off.   When guns are outlawed, only outlaws own guns.

I've never been shy about my views in regards to this.  I've had one person promise to 'hunt me and kill me 1-2 times a week, every week, until I quit' because I had a problem with his botting polluting my clan, and the willingness to make an issue of it regardless of how 31337 he may have been at leading.  I appreciate that we finally have a forum to discuss this, as opposed to just bitching in private and watching the cheaters win.

Jason

Siobhain/Vyllein/Hoodoo

Boots

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2013, 02:08:09 AM »
I only started playing with bots a year ago because of the declining player base.
But since then, I've become spoiled by them and prefer playing with bots and my handful of friends (operators) who know how to use them.

   You are full of imagination. Only you and your friends can figure out the intricacies of using more then 1 character at a time.  We are all reasonably intelligent, If this option was open to the public people would adapt fast.

I think any suggestion of trying to find some magical number, ie. a 2 bot limitation is misguided. It would be an unenforceable nightmare to police. If you allow 2, you minus well allow 10.

   Again, your forgetting that you are probably the only person who has botted with a full 10 man party. And no, 2 is not 10.  Remember when ONE character was alot?

The main thing is, to give Hoss a sense of control. The issue of whether bots are good or bad is not the issue.
   Actually, the issue is not whether they are good or bad. The issue is that people, like you, are currently using them and screwing the mud over for the people who aren't.
   
Arctic is probably around for a couple more years before there's no playerbase for it to be viable and people have moved on. A separate port would be a middle-ground solution.

      You really have no way of seeing the future. It has already died for you in this format, because you have already conquered the entire game. No zones are new to you, and you are not interested in meeting the people who came here to meet friends and learn new things. 

 Even 8 felt constricted in all honesty since I never felt like I had enough bashers.

     You are so outta touch with how this game was imagined. You had 1 character, and the world is big and huge and deadly. Instead, you are an army, and the world is small and easily conquered.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 02:17:52 AM by Boots »

snax

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Re: RCA thoughts, supplemental rider - end of pwipe cycle
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2013, 06:18:57 AM »
So, the issue crept up that if botting/multying disappeared then you have some other systems affected.  Deep renting, PK, gear balance, and zone/rank balance.

This is a valid concern and I'm going to stay neutral on the issue and throw out the following:

1) if people can multi, expect that limit gear will require several orders of magnitude of spamming for decays / loads.  Especially with an artificial "surge" in playerbase.  In addition, ranks will be spammed for most any of the non amazingly difficult/ notoriously hard and secret zones.  This is a consideration.

2) PK:  someone stated a cooldown before you could engage in pk after logging on.  (personal thought: neat idea, how about 30 minutes after you log on? or even an hour?  what if your flags lasted nearly indefinately (say: 580 ticks game time, with no decaytimer during rent cycles) for retaliation purposes for a single KILL (not aggro) - so if someone jackasses you, you could have a month to roll enough characters to make a reasonable attempt on their life?) dunno.  it's definately touchy with multying, I'ld have to again state the need for don't be an arsehole as a rule.

3) gear/zone/rank balance .... would be skewed but most easily tweaked by reverting to the original system of no ranking till level 30.  keeping the xp table where it is would encourage people to try not to die, and initially reduce rank spamming.  however after a week, a new player / new roll would have to grind forever.  Pretty much would have to make a lot of zones limit X players, or throw in stone_dragon style traps of substantial caliber.... truly a nightmare.  3 is probably the biggest concern, followed by ...1&2 - of course scarcity of gear is probably the biggest justification for the rat-race to begin with and the source of a lot of botting. 

Glah, seems like a no win for yall, but maybe with some creative approaches it wouldn't be so bad.  Definately at this point in the wipe some experimenting could be done along with statistical metric grabbing, but only if there was a formally announced wipe date, a high level secrecy as to what was going to happen next wipe, and a just/fair and tenable solution to enforcing the rules/changes that are set next wipe.

now for several suggestions: (if botting/multying is ever openly permitted) to remove some of the difficulty for multying and put a base level of functionality out there for anyone who decides to do it-
            a. wardance auto rescue and is neat, guard is neat too.  proposed change: rescue skill rescues lowest hp without a target
            b. group leader can essentially order via group tell rescues and heals (only heal spell, only rescue skill, and only assist skill)
            c.  teleport only works on grouped / clanned players
            d. relocate becomes one of the hardest spells in game to get.
            e. enigmatic dome becomes all robe, and grants aura immunity to all tracking/relocating/summoning gestures, with 24 tick duration and possibly even c9 guild
            f. gear limits are adjusted, perhaps group negative's to key items such as dragon orb (group wide rotting flesh for x amount of time after usage) ?
            g. quest for clan creation, something hard, perhaps it becomes like a 10 rank permanent purchase
            h. cooldown on pkilling at logon
            i. crack pipes become more common on game
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 06:33:24 AM by snax »

btown

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2013, 06:24:36 AM »
to me if botting is allowed it will seem like chaos day.  and it will be fun for 3 days then we will want normality.  I personally don't ever see myself matching what these guys will due in terms of botting.  all small scale fun pk will be abolished.  but w/e.

If you die with 1 char you will still have 1.  it will make all characters less valueable.  And the end result will be nobody gives a shit anyway

 

Shesh

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2013, 06:25:21 AM »
I believe the problem was misidentified.
In the public clamor of this wipe, botting/multing argument was primarily used as a convenient accusation against the harrassing clans and individuals. During my short play this wipe, I've only met 4 people who actually liked PvP, and a dozen of others who claimed they did, but lied to themselves. The age census, people got too old for this shit and want nothing but rest.
So - it's probably time to restrict pk - I don't want to be any part of it - botting issue is actually not relevant/important.

btown

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Re: State of the Bot Address
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2013, 06:27:26 AM »
yea I disagree.  balanced pk is fun.  botted clans win tho