Author Topic: Dear immortal staff, please consider the return of the skill FLANK  (Read 891 times)

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Kir

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Dear immortal staff, please consider the return of the skill FLANK
« on: September 14, 2021, 02:43:21 PM »
About 15ish years ago, when legend was added to the game, legendary thieves received the skill Flank. Flank allowed thieves who were out of combat to basically backstab mobs or players that were already in combat with slightly less damage than a backstab. This allowed thieves who persevered all the way to legend to have a powerful character. It made thieves very relevant in high end zoning as well as high level pk. Unfortunately somebody decided to remove the skill and add coup instead. I have played a legend thief with coup and was severely disappointed. I and many others feel thieves (with the loss of non-combat fade) have been nerfed into uselessness. I do agree that you can have an elite thief for high level zoning however that is completely gear dependent. I agree that characters like Katarina are powerful, but honestly that is the exception (based on elite gear) and not the rule. I have no access to the data but I would make a very educated guess that thieves one of the least represented classes due to their lack of power in groups. I would definitely never allow a thief into a pk group currently and their ability to solo pk, ie fade stab somebody dead is made completely irrelevant by the 60% damage debuff in pvp. You'd have to stab a character like 3-4 times to kill them and they are definitely going to recall prior to that. Flank would allow elite players to really make plays in 8v8 pk and would be a welcome change to the current bash\area spam meta that has been prevalent forever. Thanks for reading.

Gnua

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Re: Dear immortal staff, please consider the return of the skill FLANK
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2021, 02:58:30 PM »
I'm completely ignorant of thieves. What are the differences in how coup and flank work?

Kir

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Re: Dear immortal staff, please consider the return of the skill FLANK
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2021, 03:12:39 PM »
I'm completely ignorant of thieves. What are the differences in how coup and flank work?

For coup to work, you have to assist or be engaged in combat, use the skill coup, and then if it lands you can backstab for severly reduced damage.
For flank, you are out of combat and you type flank whoever and it does near backstab damage regardless of if the opponent is in combat or not. Originally, flank could be used on mobiles that were no_stab, So thieves could be used in big fights. Coup does not work on no_back stab mobiles. Flank basically allows a thief to instantly backstab anybody, regardless of if they are in combat or not.

gulca

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Re: Dear immortal staff, please consider the return of the skill FLANK
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2021, 12:01:22 AM »
With coup, you assist. Assist lag. Then coup. Then stab which can miss which you can try again next round. At least 3-4 rounds. I think once you coup stab, you need to wait for next coup before you can stab in combat again.


Gnua

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Re: Dear immortal staff, please consider the return of the skill FLANK
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2021, 03:24:18 PM »
I'm completely ignorant of thieves. What are the differences in how coup and flank work?

For coup to work, you have to assist or be engaged in combat, use the skill coup, and then if it lands you can backstab for severly reduced damage.
For flank, you are out of combat and you type flank whoever and it does near backstab damage regardless of if the opponent is in combat or not. Originally, flank could be used on mobiles that were no_stab, So thieves could be used in big fights. Coup does not work on no_back stab mobiles. Flank basically allows a thief to instantly backstab anybody, regardless of if they are in combat or not.

what if flank came back but didnt work on no_stab mobs?

reed23

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Re: Dear immortal staff, please consider the return of the skill FLANK
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2021, 04:52:09 PM »
Bring back flank.  Make Thieves Great Again!  Thiefs have been nerfed into oblivion and are utterly useless.  I'd take Aspasia or Chaun over current thiefs.  Give them some love please so they can leave the "bitch disabler" rolls they are in.

Kir

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Re: Dear immortal staff, please consider the return of the skill FLANK
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2021, 05:56:25 PM »
Bring back flank.  Make Thieves Great Again!  Thiefs have been nerfed into oblivion and are utterly useless.  I'd take Aspasia or Chaun over current thiefs.  Give them some love please so they can leave the "bitch disabler" rolls they are in.

I agree with this post. Now that there is a 2 character limit, thieves (who used to be the top soloers) are no longer even close because now "solo" is a two character combo. I've heard of people doing glymmer with a white robe\shaman. I know Aranaea does much content on a black robe\shaman. I know a legend druid\palain or cleric\warrior or cleric\barb etc etc is way better at soloing than any combo with thief. Reed is correct that a thief is the best at one thing: disabling. Flank would definitely help bring up the dps gap and turn them into a premiere class. Remember, legend mountain scouts can hit 5x oblit with wildfire in a round +ravage. Sky scouts can 8x oblit a round. Barbs with legend wardance\assail\gore can double oblit consistently with decent dps from those skills. Legend thieves at this moment cant even come close to any of that in groups. Yes they can backstab mobs in low\mid zones and there might even few a few high end mobs they can stab but for the most part thieves have been left behind in the evolution of the game.

Patpat

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Re: Dear immortal staff, please consider the return of the skill FLANK
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2021, 06:54:40 PM »
Bring back flank.  Make Thieves Great Again!  Thiefs have been nerfed into oblivion and are utterly useless.  I'd take Aspasia or Chaun over current thiefs.  Give them some love please so they can leave the "bitch disabler" rolls they are in.

I agree with this post. Now that there is a 2 character limit, thieves (who used to be the top soloers) are no longer even close because now "solo" is a two character combo. I've heard of people doing glymmer with a white robe\shaman. I know Aranaea does much content on a black robe\shaman. I know a legend druid\palain or cleric\warrior or cleric\barb etc etc is way better at

A thief with average eq + curer can solo nearly any content in the game they want. The biggest annoyance is nostab stuff but envenom is strong and there’s lots to work with in their kit. I agree in an 8 man a thief doesn’t bring much to the team but in a 2 char group they’re still amazing. Is there a solution to thiefs role in big groups that’s not just more damage?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 07:40:59 PM by Patpat »

Gnua

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Re: Dear immortal staff, please consider the return of the skill FLANK
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2021, 08:47:25 PM »
Bring back flank.  Make Thieves Great Again!  Thiefs have been nerfed into oblivion and are utterly useless.  I'd take Aspasia or Chaun over current thiefs.  Give them some love please so they can leave the "bitch disabler" rolls they are in.

I thought every clan had a thief on par with Katarina...

Kir

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Re: Dear immortal staff, please consider the return of the skill FLANK
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2021, 11:07:23 PM »
Bring back flank.  Make Thieves Great Again!  Thiefs have been nerfed into oblivion and are utterly useless.  I'd take Aspasia or Chaun over current thiefs.  Give them some love please so they can leave the "bitch disabler" rolls they are in.

I agree with this post. Now that there is a 2 character limit, thieves (who used to be the top soloers) are no longer even close because now "solo" is a two character combo. I've heard of people doing glymmer with a white robe\shaman. I know Aranaea does much content on a black robe\shaman. I know a legend druid\palain or cleric\warrior or cleric\barb etc etc is way better at

A thief with average eq + curer can solo nearly any content in the game they want. The biggest annoyance is nostab stuff but envenom is strong and there’s lots to work with in their kit. I agree in an 8 man a thief doesn’t bring much to the team but in a 2 char group they’re still amazing. Is there a solution to thiefs role in big groups that’s not just more damage?

Well, in most games there are tanks/dps/support. I dont see thieves as tanks or support so it leaves dps. In most games rogues are pure dps so it makes sense to me that rotating flank back in (which by the way was VERY fun to play) would be the best bet. It wouldnt overly change anything when it came to soloing but would bring them back into the mix as dps.

anticorruption

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Re: Dear immortal staff, please consider the return of the skill FLANK
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2021, 12:19:17 AM »
i suppose skill rush is better to return

Jorquin

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Re: Dear immortal staff, please consider the return of the skill FLANK
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2021, 11:34:42 AM »
Flank was bonkers OP back then. Then again, I also recall Bob blastwaving us for 400hp in a 10v10 and facemelting our whole group in that same era....

Nostalgia aside, thieves are the second worst class for groups right now IMO. Red robes take the cake for being garbage-tier after they got hotfixed from being just disgusting OP early wipe. Thieves are probably middle-of-the-pack to good for duo content, but are still miles off the optimal combos.

Agree they could use some love for group play, but not sure raw damage through flank is the answer, but I also have no other suggestions. I'm helpful like that.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2021, 11:37:38 AM by Jorquin »

gulca

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Re: Dear immortal staff, please consider the return of the skill FLANK
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2021, 07:14:45 AM »
Here are some new game mechanics that might fit a thief class.

Case
Besides giving a list of items on target, it also can return a list of memed spells.

Taunt
Castors spells are diverted as if confusion is cast. Works with specs.
Also, besides switching target to thief, mobs affected will follow thief out of the room leaving their post.

Treasure find
Increase chance of spell load, coin drop increase and chance of rank point increase

Entrapment
1d4 rounds to setup, mass entanglement with the following effect. One setup per room.
1. Whiff
2. Trip and sits
3. Trip and hit own group
4. Trip and hit self
5. AC=0

Damage demon
Damage + 1 stacked for consecutive non miss and same target.
When target dies or change, damage is reset.
For example, a thief will have +10 dam after 10 non miss hits while in combat

Envenom
I think envenom should be more controlled with different types of poisons
1. Temp blind
2. Temp silence
3. Temp paralysis
4. Memory loss
5. Slow
6. Target cant be cured for 1d3 rounds
7. Weaken with chance of fumble
8. Confusion
« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 07:22:44 AM by gulca »

Kir

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Re: Dear immortal staff, please consider the return of the skill FLANK
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2021, 02:32:33 PM »
I think the treasure find and set trap are two interesting ideas that would add benefit to the class for sure. Would add a big reason to bring thieves to pvE and could make them defensive players in pvp