Legendary Gate

[corey]

Modified to add thoughts rather than just the idea. Animate feels a bit gimmicky/clunky to use. It was in way too strong of a place for a long time, now people are complaining it's nerfed too hard (I disagree, I think it's in a good spot and non-transmog shaman spirits are too strong overall). Gate currently has its uses, but it doesn't feel up to snuff. This might be a golden opportunity to level the playing field among the two casters, add a new dynamic to clerics previously and very much untouched, reduce some screen clutter, as well as get rid of an old, clunky spell.

Remove animate dead, or rework to animate NPCs with a different use
Remove legendary animate dead

Add legendary Gate
Duration of Gate increased
Gate charmies now become stronger versions of themselves (new names. damage becomes similar to an abomination from transmogrify)
Gate charmies get 1-3 superb skills for their class. ie. unbalance/disable, disable/pick, unbalance throat punch etc
Gate charmies gain the "aura" skill, providing an on-cooldown version of the aura they normally provide to the caster, to the entire group (good/evil auras may need to be toned up to match neutral, or neutral toned down to match good/evil)

[Zozen]

Agree, while animate is getting a lot of attention and the balance is really hard to find I do think Gate could be the hero that cleric players are looking for without breaking the game.

[Gnua]

Agree, while animate is getting a lot of attention and the balance is really hard to find I do think Gate could be the hero that cleric players are looking for without breaking the game.

And then clerics of Mishakal/Paladine would have dps options that werent so blasphemous to their religion

[eddiex]

Gate charmies get 1-3 superb skills for their class. ie. unbalance/disable, disable/pick, unbalance throat punch etc

Yea I'm not wholesale against improving gate, but basically removing the necessity for anyone to play a thief by loading a cleric spell is a terrible idea.  Please don't do this.

[Dafin]

Gate charmies get 1-3 superb skills for their class. ie. unbalance/disable, disable/pick, unbalance throat punch etc

removing the necessity for anyone to play a thief

Are people making Legend R5 thieves just for superb disable/pick?

[Malthros]

Gate charmies get 1-3 superb skills for their class. ie. unbalance/disable, disable/pick, unbalance throat punch etc

Yea I'm not wholesale against improving gate, but basically removing the necessity for anyone to play a thief by loading a cleric spell is a terrible idea.  Please don't do this.

What about the 'knock' spell, which is honestly more reliable?  Unless you're telling me you use Gate charmies for disables too which is certainly a bold decision if so.

The Gate thieves are convenience for low-effort stuff but superb-skilled thieves are still a must-have for some things and the existence of Gate doesn't make skilled thieves suddenly impotent or unable to solo large swaths of the game.

[eddiex]

Gate charmies get 1-3 superb skills for their class. ie. unbalance/disable, disable/pick, unbalance throat punch etc

removing the necessity for anyone to play a thief

Are people making Legend R5 thieves just for superb disable/pick?

Hi dumb bapt. No, they are making them because they have no life and they enjoy playing thieves.

The key word is necessity.

[eddiex]

I love all these thieves experts schooling me like I wasn't the first legendary thief of the wipe after starting in day 5.

Maybe it's not a big deal if clerics get a charmie with superb disable at legend.

It's my opinion that disabling is a key role of having someone play a thief and being able to replace that with a charmie would be like being able to replace a basher with a charmie.

I'll be doing a comprehensive post of why thieves suck and how to fix them when I have time. There seems to be a lot of people who I've never heard of or have known to play a thief at a relevant level who have opinions about them.

[Lloth]

This should be interesting.

[corey]

I love all these thieves experts schooling me like I wasn't the first legendary thief of the wipe after starting in day 5.

Maybe it's not a big deal if clerics get a charmie with superb disable at legend.

It's my opinion that disabling is a key role of having someone play a thief and being able to replace that with a charmie would be like being able to replace a basher with a charmie.

I'll be doing a comprehensive post of why thieves suck and how to fix them when I have time. There seems to be a lot of people who I've never heard of or have known to play a thief at a relevant level who have opinions about them.

Clerics can already get thief-level disable with a litte work.

[eddiex]

I love all these thieves experts schooling me like I wasn't the first legendary thief of the wipe after starting in day 5.

Maybe it's not a big deal if clerics get a charmie with superb disable at legend.

It's my opinion that disabling is a key role of having someone play a thief and being able to replace that with a charmie would be like being able to replace a basher with a charmie.

I'll be doing a comprehensive post of why thieves suck and how to fix them when I have time. There seems to be a lot of people who I've never heard of or have known to play a thief at a relevant level who have opinions about them.

Clerics can already get thief-level disable with a litte work.

I don't think you're making a case for your suggestion then.

Clerics already out heal any healing class, out damage any melee class, and apparently make unique thief role obsolete.

Here's a suggestion, why don't you make their area spells do 150 damage like op mages too?

[corey]

I love all these thieves experts schooling me like I wasn't the first legendary thief of the wipe after starting in day 5.

Maybe it's not a big deal if clerics get a charmie with superb disable at legend.

It's my opinion that disabling is a key role of having someone play a thief and being able to replace that with a charmie would be like being able to replace a basher with a charmie.

I'll be doing a comprehensive post of why thieves suck and how to fix them when I have time. There seems to be a lot of people who I've never heard of or have known to play a thief at a relevant level who have opinions about them.

Clerics can already get thief-level disable with a litte work.

I don't think you're making a case for your suggestion then.

Clerics already out heal any healing class, out damage any melee class, and apparently make unique thief role obsolete.

Here's a suggestion, why don't you make their area spells do 150 damage like op mages too?

For the record, I think clerics are too strong, and shaman way too strong.

This wasn't intended as a "buff clerics" post, it was a "normalize charmies" post. The skills were examples. I'm not in charge of anything

[Malthros]

Nothing about your suggestion is normalization (I originally overlooked your suggestion they get superb skills which is why I was confused people cared so much about a thief charmie with fair-good skills) and would make Gate charmies exceptionally powerful.


Gate strength is mostly ok as-is.  They should be able to remove their gear (Antioch can't tank shit so I'd rather give them a spare 2hander to hit harder) and a few could benefit from a review of their abilities, since some just don't seem useful at all, but if you think clerics are too powerful then why are you suggesting what amounts to a huge buff to their class?

[corey]

Nothing about your suggestion is normalization (I originally overlooked your suggestion they get superb skills which is why I was confused people cared so much about a thief charmie with fair-good skills) and would make Gate charmies exceptionally powerful.


Gate strength is mostly ok as-is.  They should be able to remove their gear (Antioch can't tank shit so I'd rather give them a spare 2hander to hit harder) and a few could benefit from a review of their abilities, since some just don't seem useful at all, but if you think clerics are too powerful then why are you suggesting what amounts to a huge buff to their class?

I'm not in charge of balance and won't add "nerf rapture" in the same thread, that's all

[mpriki]

Generally agree with Corey.
Remove animate dead and buff gate , maybe even turn gate to skill like mage's conjure .
I dont like the idea of a good align cleric walking into a town accompanied with 2 zombies.