Author Topic: Animate broken  (Read 2664 times)

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Jorake

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Animate broken
« on: February 01, 2021, 05:22:42 PM »
Can we please fix animate? I was given to understand that they would retain their innate chance to double hit. I nor any other legend cleric i know of has yet to see a single double hit.

Zozen

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Re: Animate broken
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2021, 05:23:57 PM »
Sounds fixed...?

Jorake

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Re: Animate broken
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2021, 11:32:40 PM »
Nah. I thought it was supposed to keep their innate chance to double hit, but not get extra hits from ghostdance and rally etc.

Patpat

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Re: Animate broken
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2021, 05:43:50 AM »
Ya the help legend cleric says they get a chance to extra attack with the animate rank. Just bought the rank tonight definitely no extra attacks.

Lloth

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Re: Animate broken
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2021, 02:06:43 PM »
The extra hit comes from the second animate......are you guys new here?

Patpat

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Re: Animate broken
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2021, 02:20:13 PM »
The extra hit comes from the second animate......are you guys new here?

Help legend cleric “Animates gain a chance to hit an extra time per round.”

Malthros

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Re: Animate broken
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2021, 04:03:31 PM »
Clerics:
--------
* Animate dead corpses maximum reduced to 1 pre legend, 2 at legend (down from
    2 and 3 respectively). Additionally, corpses can no longer wield weapons
    or be affected by haste effects.


Maybe the change was meant to include every single source of extra_attack ghost dance, innate mob stats, rally, etc) and not just haste flags, but if so news and legend cleric helpfile don't reflect this nor is the rank work 4rp if it means you go from 1 single attack corpse to 2 single attack corpses.

Jorake

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Re: Animate broken
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2021, 06:38:32 PM »
I didnt expect them to double swing every round. Rank says a chance I believe. I just haven't seen it.

reed23

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Re: Animate broken
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2021, 09:39:07 PM »
As a cleric addict over the past 15 years, i am very disappointed with the animate changes.  To be honest, i animated 1 time this wipe, saw how pathetic the animates are now, sold the legend animate rank, and haven't memmed an animate dead since.  Corpses were previously way OP, but clerics suck otherwise compared to other curing classes.  All that needed to happen is not allow corpses to wield.  That takes care of a big part of the problem.  But nerfing to 2 corpses and also nerfing to 1 hit per round.  Not worth my time. Wahhhh

Gnua

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Re: Animate broken
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2021, 04:27:27 PM »
Ya the help legend cleric says they get a chance to extra attack with the animate rank. Just bought the rank tonight definitely no extra attacks.

Maybe it is a question of interpretation of the helpfiles for legendary animate: legend corpses can gain an extra attack from ghostdance/rally/bolster but nonlegend corpses cannot.

Jorake

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Re: Animate broken
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2021, 08:08:51 PM »
Nah. I've had groups with legend barbs and Ghostface didn't work.

eddiex

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Re: Animate broken
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2021, 10:05:08 PM »
As a cleric addict over the past 15 years, i am very disappointed with the animate changes.  To be honest, i animated 1 time this wipe, saw how pathetic the animates are now, sold the legend animate rank, and haven't memmed an animate dead since.  Corpses were previously way OP, but clerics suck otherwise compared to other curing classes.  All that needed to happen is not allow corpses to wield.  That takes care of a big part of the problem.  But nerfing to 2 corpses and also nerfing to 1 hit per round.  Not worth my time. Wahhhh

You also play the game with the most stacked tanks in the game and don't need to mem animate to increase damage output.  Congrats, buddy, we're that buff.  I'm sure I don't need to remind you that Clerics are far superior to any other healing class pre-legend pound for pound.

To illustrate:  We can bring non-legend Nemesis to endgame.  Would you ever even consider bringing a non-legend Syug or Zinsandoral to endgame?  Of course not.

I'm going to try to tackle the issue of animate and why it was way too OP before and provide a suggestion of how to improve the spell to make it both balanced and useful for all players.

Animate as it was before and still somewhat remains a spell that allows the Cleric (in addition to their Oblits from rapture) to become the single highest direct melee damage dealer in your average group with 0 equipment. 
-Last wipe 1-2x annihilating average corpses X3 + Clerics Oblit.
-This wipe 1x annihilating average corpses X2 + Cleric Oblit (I think).

This is/was completely out of wack when your melee specific classes are getting out damaged by run of the mill corpses (and far out damaged by elite corpses).


So here's the proposal:
-Recode animate dead
-Make animate dead create a generic animated corpse
-Animate dead should then be changed to land on any corpse, land at a much higher rate (if not 100%)
-Animates limit could remain at 2 at legend (maybe 3)
-Generic animates damage should not exceed low end annihilates on bashed targets (can be tuned to whatever imms think are fair)
-Imms can decide whether corpses can double hit with haste effects like rally/ghostdance but this should play into the damage cap they set for the corpses per hit
-Corpses still can't wield due to abuse of crossbows ignoring shields

What does this fix:
-Situational nature of animate (no longer have to ferry in special corpses as all corpses animatable and equal[minus undead which don't leave corpses])
-Caps damage output of animates so people are not secretly discovering double oblitting/mutilating corpses who far outdamage the average melee tank (and in some cases the most stacked melee chars you can find)
-Removes the frustration of continually failing to animate corpses

What could this break:
- NPCs that animate a corpse to make a fight more difficult (although many times this can be mitigated by simply looting the corpse)
- the value of Sanctify Corpse/Ground (although lets be honest, who the eff uses these on a consistent basis)

« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 01:46:34 AM by eddiex »

gulca

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Re: Animate broken
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2021, 08:15:37 AM »
Here is a suggestion for a total change on animate. It is not a tweak to the current system and hence it may not be suitable for implementation in the near future.

Get rid of animate at the current circle.

Put it to circle 3. Rename it raise undead.

All corpse now will decompose to skeleton after 5 ticks. Skeletons can be picked up and store in container for future use.

The level of original corpse will limit on the max type of undead you can get.

The caster level will limit the number of undead you can control. For example, level 10 caster will be able to control 10 spider corpse or 1 hobgoblin corpse.

The type of undead that appears are rolled. Higher undead type have lower percentages.

Only corpses can be high undead. Skeletons always stay as skeleton, lowest form of undead. So use your spells on fresh kills.

Each time you raise undead from corpse, you get the chance to raise the following limited by level of the corpse:
Skeleton
Zombie disease on touch
Ghast, spec stun on humanoid
Wight, spec stinkin cloud
Ghost, spec confusion
Spectral minion, spec edrain
Vampire, spec para
Lich, retains skills and spells with all lower spec

Ghost and above undeads can retain one to all their former skills.

Turn skill used on these undead will cause the following
Undead explodes causing splatter damage to the room
Undead takes damage
Undead flee the room
Undead becomes berserk and attack the user
Undead breaks the bond to controller and become a idle mob
Undead attacks the controller

Casting raise undead
Failure:
1. corpse explodes with splatter damage
2. Nothing happens. Chances of failure on next cast higher.
3. Undead attacks the caster regardless if it can see.
4. Undead refuses the bond and become a idle mob.

Success:
1. Success roll depends on the current amount of corpses you control and max level of your spell.
2. Night time and graveyard increase the percentage of higher undead
3. Using turn with your undead in room will cause all undead to turn aggro and subject to usual turn effect.
4. Release undead will cause undead to break the bond. The undead becomes an idle mob.

Undeads breaks bond after 24 ticks.

regent

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Re: Animate broken
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2021, 09:27:42 AM »
Here is a suggestion for a total change on animate. It is not a tweak to the current system and hence it may not be suitable for implementation in the near future.

Get rid of animate at the current circle.

Put it to circle 3. Rename it raise undead.

All corpse now will decompose to skeleton after 5 ticks. Skeletons can be picked up and store in container for future use.

The level of original corpse will limit on the max type of undead you can get.

The caster level will limit the number of undead you can control. For example, level 10 caster will be able to control 10 spider corpse or 1 hobgoblin corpse.

The type of undead that appears are rolled. Higher undead type have lower percentages.

Only corpses can be high undead. Skeletons always stay as skeleton, lowest form of undead. So use your spells on fresh kills.

Each time you raise undead from corpse, you get the chance to raise the following limited by level of the corpse:
Skeleton
Zombie disease on touch
Ghast, spec stun on humanoid
Wight, spec stinkin cloud
Ghost, spec confusion
Spectral minion, spec edrain
Vampire, spec para
Lich, retains skills and spells with all lower spec

Ghost and above undeads can retain one to all their former skills.

Turn skill used on these undead will cause the following
Undead explodes causing splatter damage to the room
Undead takes damage
Undead flee the room
Undead becomes berserk and attack the user
Undead breaks the bond to controller and become a idle mob
Undead attacks the controller

Casting raise undead
Failure:
1. corpse explodes with splatter damage
2. Nothing happens. Chances of failure on next cast higher.
3. Undead attacks the caster regardless if it can see.
4. Undead refuses the bond and become a idle mob.

Success:
1. Success roll depends on the current amount of corpses you control and max level of your spell.
2. Night time and graveyard increase the percentage of higher undead
3. Using turn with your undead in room will cause all undead to turn aggro and subject to usual turn effect.
4. Release undead will cause undead to break the bond. The undead becomes an idle mob.

Undeads breaks bond after 24 ticks.
This sounds ridiculous. When did Dragonlance clerics become necromancers? Why not design a system better suited for all cleric alignments beyond raising corpses? A deity-based 'conjure' makes way more sense than this extensive proposal, but only from fun standpoint. Clerics are good enough without animate dead. They are still a top guild. They are just boring to play with shamans and druids outshining them with automagic cures every round. This area needs more attention than necrophilia.

Jorake

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Re: Animate broken
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2021, 01:06:57 PM »
Diety based conjure is the gate spell.

This got out of hand I think.

I'm fine with my corpses massacring and maybe annih on bashed mobs. That's ok damage and isn't game breaking. I just wanted the innate chance to double hit to be fixed. I'm fine with it being 6th circle. Heal is divine after all.

If anything I would make gate 7th circle.