Author Topic: [CONTROVERSY] Random Item System  (Read 1848 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

corey

  • Zone Leader
  • ***
  • Posts: 281
  • Favorite Zone: Brogs
[CONTROVERSY] Random Item System
« on: January 19, 2021, 11:50:48 PM »
Trigger warning, because I know a lot of time and effort was put into this system and I think we all appreciate it and think it just needs major tuning. This is not a bitching post but an effort at constructive feedback.

I want to start with two things:

1. Timers seem to be messed up on traditional items. I'm not sure if this is intended as an offset to randomized items, but things are seemingly decaying at 4x the rate of last wipe. I shouldn't have to repop limit1 items ever 7-10 days.

2. The best chaos item I've found is a neck det invis, 8vs, -1 saving spell. It's also the only usable item.


*** This is my experience. I believe I can speak for Shield as well. ***

Chaos items aren't actually very rare. Not only are they somewhat common, but they're just overall bad. I can't count the number of items I've picked up and had them lore as resist electricity 2, or healing received by 1%, cleric only.

I'm not going to go into anything specific, but here are some problems I'm seeing:

* chaos items are not very rare
* chaos items largely have no use
* chaos items, while randomized, are not truly random. It's very easy to tell where the stat weights are
* I'm sure item timers have a minimum duration, but these also seem random

A few ideas:
* make them rarer
* make them useful. Almost every item should have a purpose. Randomization is fine, but items should be fun to find. It should be exciting, not an internal argument about bothering to put in the effort to type to pick it up versus leaving it on a corpse
* In the case of resists, make minimums higher. No one will ever have a reason to wear res 3
* weight things like hitroll and -ac heavier at lower levels
* make things realistic - I like that some items seem to be farmable, and one weapon in particular comes to mind, but no one in a level 22 zone is going to have 27-28 strength to use it
* reiteration on making things rare and exciting. I shouldn't be finding a resist acid 3 hp regen 1 item off a boss near the end of a high level zone. It's demoralizing. I'd rather have not seen anything

joesux

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
Re: [CONTROVERSY] Random Item System
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2021, 12:30:40 AM »
Can't say I disagree with any of these points. All the random item system has done is create a massive eyesore at the world merchant(please let us drain these items if you don't make them actually useful)?

Again - no disrespect meant for the time and effort put into implementing this.

corey

  • Zone Leader
  • ***
  • Posts: 281
  • Favorite Zone: Brogs
Re: [CONTROVERSY] Random Item System
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2021, 12:36:12 AM »
Can't say I disagree with any of these points. All the random item system has done is create a massive eyesore at the world merchant(please let us drain these items if you don't make them actually useful)?

Again - no disrespect meant for the time and effort put into implementing this.

Yea this is not meant as disrespect at all, but it is hard to offer criticism without it sounding like whining. I love the system itself, I just believe it needs heavy tuning to make it great.

Lloth

  • God
  • Fodder
  • ***
  • Posts: 67
Re: [CONTROVERSY] Random Item System
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2021, 01:18:46 AM »
I'll take a stab at this.

1. Yes the timers seem off. We are looking at adjusting the timer lengths to better suite where they load and how difficult they are to load.

2. You just haven't been lucky enough I guess. I assure you that item you mentioned could have been a lot better. That's the entire point about the system. Yes, there are a lot of items loading and if you keep loading them, you WILL get something good. Without divulging the chances, the best of the best is pretty tough to get.

3. The entire system is new and put together in a very short amount of time. Be sure that the immortal staff is taking everything into consideration and will be tweaking the system as we move forward.

4. This system is not meant to have every item be 'good' and have a 'purpose'. It certainly could if you run the right zones and get the right items and get very lucky.  This system is to allow items a chance to load, regardless of the regular items in the zoning loading or not.

5. It does sound like whining. We thank you for your feedback.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 01:50:13 AM by Lloth »

corey

  • Zone Leader
  • ***
  • Posts: 281
  • Favorite Zone: Brogs
Re: [CONTROVERSY] Random Item System
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2021, 01:41:28 AM »
I'll take a stab at this.

1. Yes the timers seem off. We are looking at adjusting the timer lengths to better suite where they load and how difficult they are to load.

2. You just haven't been lucky enough I guess. I assure you that item you mentioned could have been a lot better. That's the entire point about the system. Yes, there are a lot of items loading and if you keep loading them, you WILL get something good. Without divulging the chances, the best of the best is pretty tough to get.

3. The entire system is new and put together in a very short amount of time. Be sure that the immortal staff is taking everything into consideration and will be tweaking the system as we move forward.

4. This system is not meant to have every item be 'good' and have a 'purpose'. It certainly could if you run the right zones and get the right items and get very lucky.  This system is to allow items a chance to load, regardless of the regular items in the zoning loading or not.

We thank you for your feedback.

Not a problem!

Just to touch on two of your points:

1: For the most part, I was talking about non-chaos items. For instance last wipe a speat from a cettain barbarian who roams the lands near Delphon lasted a month or slightly longer. I've had to repop it 1-2 times already.

2. Yep and if that's how the system is meant to be, then that's how it's meant to be. I was bringing light to it being more fun for people to have something load maybe 10x less often but when you see it, you know it's at least going to have some minimal use somewhere. Both are valid but that was my opinion on it

You guys are great

corey

  • Zone Leader
  • ***
  • Posts: 281
  • Favorite Zone: Brogs
Re: [CONTROVERSY] Random Item System
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2021, 03:40:20 AM »
One more idea to toss on the pile:

Perhaps instead of full class restrictions (I'm seeing a lot of only one class can use an item), it's broken down by role.

If an item drops as increased healing %, it's flagged automatically to be usable by any class that has healing as a main role (druid/shaman/cleric).
If an item drops that is limit_damage_factor, for instance, it is assumed that it be usable by tank classes.

etc

Bro

  • God
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 11
  • Favorite Zone: Thieves Den
Re: [CONTROVERSY] Random Item System
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2021, 05:44:33 PM »
Trigger warning, because I know a lot of time and effort was put into this system and I think we all appreciate it and think it just needs major tuning. This is not a bitching post but an effort at constructive feedback.

I want to start with two things:

1. Timers seem to be messed up on traditional items. I'm not sure if this is intended as an offset to randomized items, but things are seemingly decaying at 4x the rate of last wipe. I shouldn't have to repop limit1 items ever 7-10 days.

2. The best chaos item I've found is a neck det invis, 8vs, -1 saving spell. It's also the only usable item.


*** This is my experience. I believe I can speak for Shield as well. ***

Chaos items aren't actually very rare. Not only are they somewhat common, but they're just overall bad. I can't count the number of items I've picked up and had them lore as resist electricity 2, or healing received by 1%, cleric only.

I'm not going to go into anything specific, but here are some problems I'm seeing:

* chaos items are not very rare
* chaos items largely have no use
* chaos items, while randomized, are not truly random. It's very easy to tell where the stat weights are
* I'm sure item timers have a minimum duration, but these also seem random

A few ideas:
* make them rarer
* make them useful. Almost every item should have a purpose. Randomization is fine, but items should be fun to find. It should be exciting, not an internal argument about bothering to put in the effort to type to pick it up versus leaving it on a corpse
* In the case of resists, make minimums higher. No one will ever have a reason to wear res 3
* weight things like hitroll and -ac heavier at lower levels
* make things realistic - I like that some items seem to be farmable, and one weapon in particular comes to mind, but no one in a level 22 zone is going to have 27-28 strength to use it
* reiteration on making things rare and exciting. I shouldn't be finding a resist acid 3 hp regen 1 item off a boss near the end of a high level zone. It's demoralizing. I'd rather have not seen anything


The system isn't designed for the items themselves to be rare, but a part of the design is for the really good items from the system to be rare. I think you are experiencing this and it is functioning as intended, though as there is more data it can be reviewed. There definitely has not been anywhere close to enough time to determine otherwise for the higher end things less then 3 weeks into the wipe when you are talking about the way an elite item can be rolled. You may have popped an elite item and just been unlucky. It's part of the design, to maintain the rarity for the best of the best. If you're loading items from elite level content you should keep trying. It's difficult to address the totality of your post without revealing information not intended to be shared, but the majority of your input has been considered and evaluated, it's just operating to maintain that the best and most elite items are really rare to load to prevent oversaturation.

I am certain some elements of the system do need tweaked. I am also certain there needs to be more data before turning too many dials and adjusting.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 07:01:38 PM by Bro »

Zozen

  • Immortal
  • Zone Leader
  • *
  • Posts: 255
Re: [CONTROVERSY] Random Item System
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2021, 07:03:37 PM »
I haven't seen anything too elite but there are some decent items that I think are useable-- for example an about worn thief +1 con / 7 resist heat / immune fear (for sale DM for more info.)  Problem that people have is they aren't loring enough I think. Lots on WM not lored (unless they are doing ID spell I guess?)

Gnua

  • Immortal
  • Elder
  • *
  • Posts: 589
Re: [CONTROVERSY] Random Item System
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2021, 09:04:32 PM »
Can't say I disagree with any of these points. All the random item system has done is create a massive eyesore at the world merchant(please let us drain these items if you don't make them actually useful)?

Again - no disrespect meant for the time and effort put into implementing this.

Yea this is not meant as disrespect at all, but it is hard to offer criticism without it sounding like whining. I love the system itself, I just believe it needs heavy tuning to make it great.

would any of the following help with world merchant pollution:
 - random gear identified as such at the world merchant
 - drainable with about a 5% chance of giving a mote appropriate to the "tier" of the item

Jorake

  • Zone Leader
  • ***
  • Posts: 364
Re: [CONTROVERSY] Random Item System
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2021, 10:32:37 PM »
I found a random load pouch for my mage. 6hp 2cl -1 ss I believe it is. Now, it can't hold anything but like 17 acorns! But its still pretty cool.

Malthros

  • Fodder
  • *
  • Posts: 87
Re: [CONTROVERSY] Random Item System
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2021, 10:51:50 PM »
1: For the most part, I was talking about non-chaos items. For instance last wipe a speat from a cettain barbarian who roams the lands near Delphon lasted a month or slightly longer. I've had to repop it 1-2 times already.

Considering the stats on that spear and how easy it is to load, I'm not surprised it decays faster now.  I loaded it on day 1 of last wipe and I think I carried one with me for most of my active playtime.  High end, easy to pop gear having a short lifespan isn't unique though that doesn't make repopping a decay any less annoying.

corey

  • Zone Leader
  • ***
  • Posts: 281
  • Favorite Zone: Brogs
Re: [CONTROVERSY] Random Item System
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2021, 12:15:17 AM »
1: For the most part, I was talking about non-chaos items. For instance last wipe a speat from a cettain barbarian who roams the lands near Delphon lasted a month or slightly longer. I've had to repop it 1-2 times already.

Considering the stats on that spear and how easy it is to load, I'm not surprised it decays faster now.  I loaded it on day 1 of last wipe and I think I carried one with me for most of my active playtime.  High end, easy to pop gear having a short lifespan isn't unique though that doesn't make repopping a decay any less annoying.

That doesn't mean it was intended and it was an example, not the only item with that problem - and it is a problem. The game is full of little fun things that load everywhere.

By the same token, should dragon hilted claymore decay in a week? Ruby axe? Shield of kings, sword of kings, tangle of ivy, the list goes on.

el conquistador

  • Zoner
  • **
  • Posts: 143
Re: [CONTROVERSY] Random Item System
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2021, 07:55:47 AM »
they seem ok to me.  not as good as i was hoping but better than nothing. 

ive probably found about 100 of them and none of them really very good but i equipped 3 or 4 at least for a while.  it seems like youd have to get Really lucky to find one to be excited about.

quite a few zones ive done would have given 0 loads except for these items.  while each one is probably trash, at least it is something to pick up and look at rather than just leaving completely empty-handed.

Zozen

  • Immortal
  • Zone Leader
  • *
  • Posts: 255
Re: [CONTROVERSY] Random Item System
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2021, 04:12:00 PM »
Agree. I haven't done any of the end game stuff but in my mind things like blaze, cyan, etc should auto load one or two of these that are "wearable" especially if everything is loaded. Like a flat +6 slot wrist for cleric/shaman or +1 dam bracer. Nothing insane but very useable.

corey

  • Zone Leader
  • ***
  • Posts: 281
  • Favorite Zone: Brogs
Re: [CONTROVERSY] Random Item System
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2021, 09:42:00 PM »
If you go weeks without finding at least a half decent item, is that a personal RNG problem, or is it a bad weighting problem?

Then there comes the decays.. the one usable one I found decayed today. Sadface lost det invis