Author Topic: Reincarnation Thoughts  (Read 3484 times)

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Ericj

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Reincarnation Thoughts
« on: September 17, 2019, 10:09:17 AM »
First - thanks for a fun change in the game.  I like this type of change due to the nature of being able to play 1 character without finding yourself stuck with nothing to strive for.  Below are some challenges I encountered and feedback. 

- Even with 4 days of almost start-of-wipe-playtime, it was a grind but fun since first time and seeing folks playing who have not in a while.  That being said, that was WITH 2x exp weekend.  I suggest keeping 2x exp if you have reincarnate flag since experience gains are higher per reincarnate.  Still takes a lot of time and grindy to get the results you want.

- Being neutral with this system is absolutely horrid.  Maybe change way neuts can gain exp or ability to change aligns upon reincarnate.  I know robed mages, paladins,dks this does not solve for though but worth a thought.

- Experience loss for deaths at high levels is soul sucking.  Losing 11mil at 30 just makes you want to press zero, and maybe 4 password.  Curbing death loss would be nice.  The thought of doing anything that challenging that posses risk of death just is not worth it, thus not as much fun.

- The experience at lvl 30 and not getting bonus (or a penalty, unsure how it works) is difficult to swallow.  Keep it the way it was prior to 30.

- Grouping!!!! The game is about socialization and hopefully interacting with fellow nerds, and hopefully helping folks out.  The current system discourages grouping, not as much in lower levels but 25+, lvl 30....we literally had a 6man we broke up because experience was so bad.  So instead of running storms and fun things, we broke into 3man groups mindlessly slaying guards and small zones.  This was not much fun and led to too many beers having to be drank, thus causing hangover with 2 small kids.....regretting the beers and maybe the arctic time.

- Find a way we can use our well earned rank points.  In current system, the coins are too much to really use ranks.   Nobody wants to grind coins, it is one of the worst parts of the game.  This could be fixed one of two ways (just ideas).

Ericj

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Re: Reincarnation Thoughts
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2019, 10:13:21 AM »
Sorry - expanding on ideas.

1) make ranks in general 50% off MSRP.  It won't break the game and make it more fun to switch character modes.  If you want, make this for only reincarnated characters if you don't want general population to have it.

2) Give you the ability to "Swap" ranks for same or lower price weekly.  This would have to be worked in somehow with reincarnate, maybe you choose 2 ranks you like to "carry over".  I say 2, it could be 1 or 3, who knows but being able to use ranks during the grind would be nice without having to allocate 2hrs a day of coin grinding which at that point - who even plays?  Time is tough as it is to carve out to the game, I want to just don't want to have to do it to even play.

**Quick note** - if 2x experience in general is not possible (which I think should be considered) - having double experience weekends every weekend maybe?   I'm not as much of a fan of that personally as weekends as a supposedly adult with kids is no longer gaming time.  It would be nice to play this game on your schedule not on arctic's timeframe.  We all have lives we are trying to intertwine into this soul sucking addictive game :)

Again - really fun so far but already hitting the grindmode on reincarnate 2 and hope to see others thoughts and ideas.

Thanks Immortal team for the fun!

Kadaj

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Re: Reincarnation Thoughts
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2019, 08:48:45 AM »
I haven't tried reincarnation yet and I probably won't be doing it this wipe. Playtime for me is super limited now and I honestly might not even get to play next wipe. But just thinking about what Reincarnation really means for the game.

Right now, Legendary characters vs the early 90's and 00's characters are just so much stronger. Legendary really opened the flood gates to what people can do on small groups or two mans. My biggest concern with reincarnation is making legendary characters.........even stronger.

Think about a pre-legend thief vs a legendary thief, pretty HUGE difference. Now imagine a 7x Reincarnated thief.
He would have +70 hp, -7 save vs spell and +14 stat points *Without spending a single rank* but then, they get a BONUS +14 rank points to spend on top of that.
Now throw in a medal that's rank 100 and you pretty much have a 600-700 hp thief, which will most likely have the Steelskin rank, be maxxed on -svs, tons of resists from the medal, blind immunity, all sorts of beneficial flags.

I know that it's a giant time sink and it's great that we have this new thing to look forward to and sure, you can opt in to doing it or not. Maybe cut the benefits in half as well as the exp needed from 1-30 so it's an option that would still be enticing but not make most content so trivial with these super powered characters.

The only problem I don't want to see is having people solo'ing/2 manning really hard stuff and inevitably stuff getting nerfed to compensate for the power of the characters.

Just my thoughts coming from someone who's played this game way too long.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 08:52:51 AM by Kadaj »

el conquistador

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Re: Reincarnation Thoughts
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2019, 09:53:02 AM »

- The experience at lvl 30 and not getting bonus (or a penalty, unsure how it works) is difficult to swallow.  Keep it the way it was prior to 30.

- Grouping!!!! The game is about socialization and hopefully interacting with fellow nerds, and hopefully helping folks out.  The current system discourages grouping, not as much in lower levels but 25+, lvl 30....we literally had a 6man we broke up because experience was so bad.  So instead of running storms and fun things, we broke into 3man groups mindlessly slaying guards and small zones.  This was not much fun and led to too many beers having to be drank, thus causing hangover with 2 small kids.....regretting the beers and maybe the arctic time.


this is the biggest thing to me.  my priority next wipe will be reincarnating and in the current system that will mean avoiding groups from 30 to 1x.  why is there such a huge grouping penalty at level 30?  you can be getting 50k per kill at 29 but then ding 30 and immediately drop down to 10k for the rest from there. 

i dont think xp loss on death would be so huge if this was fixed.  grinding xp at 29 i can usually gain 11 million in under 3 hours.  at level 30 the same xp will probably take 7+ hours.  that is what makes deaths so devastating.  if you die you just lost a saturday.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 09:56:06 AM by el conquistador »

Gnua

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Re: Reincarnation Thoughts
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2019, 12:32:59 PM »
why is there such a huge grouping penalty at level 30?  you can be getting 50k per kill at 29 but then ding 30 and immediately drop down to 10k for the rest from there. 

before reincarnation this didnt matter at all because at level 30 you didnt care about xp, you wanted ranks/coins/spells/gear.  what if the reincarnation requirement was level 30 rather than 1x.  that way xp at level 30 still doesnt really matter except for building up your death buffer.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 08:16:43 AM by Gnua »

Attai

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Re: Reincarnation Thoughts
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2019, 02:10:27 AM »
I want to start off by saying I love the idea of reincarnation.  However unless something changes I can’t see myself reincarnating more than 2 times, a Legendary character is going to be stronger than a multiple times reincarnated non-legendary character.

The decision to reincarnate is not a decision to make lightly, I feel if you play with a group of friends or are in a clan then reincarnating is a selfish non-team player decision.  As soon as you are at a useful level and strength you start over again at level 1 which hurts your friends/clans ability to do the high level zones.  Even if your character is level 30 you whats the point of fully training your skills or buying the expensive ranks you otherwise would have because you are going to lose them when you reincarnate again.  You’re not going to spend 200k on Steelskin everytime you reincarnate so whats the point of buying it until you’re done?  If you want to do most high level zones a non-reincarnated Legendary character is going to be much more powerful and much more useful than a character still doing its reincarnations.

Looking at the XP cost:
Pre-Reincarnate: 199,999,999
Reincarnate 1: 219,999,999
Reincarnate 2: 241,999,999
Reincarnate 3: 266,999,999
Reincarnate 4: 293,699,999
Reincarnate 5: 323,069,999
Reincarnate 6: 355,376,999

That is just over 1.6 Billion XP needed to reincarnate 6 times to acquire those bonuses (I’m assuming based on rough extra 10% XP needed per reincarnate).  I understand a Legendary 6x Reincarnated character is going to be an absolute beast no matter what class but given the trade-offs I don’t see how its worth it.
Reincarnations really hurt Dark Knights and Neutral alignments the most.  If I was a Dark Knight I would not give up Impunity to reincarnate again and xp’ing a Neutral even once is absolutely horrid.

Suggestions:
I agree with almost everything that Eric said
-   If you have a reincarnate flag you should be getting 2x XP all the time, you’ve proven you’re not a trash character and the grind is just too much
-   I believe certain ranks should be able to carry over (fly/hr/-ac) even if its just the lower cost ranks
-   There should be no lvl 30 XP penalty or give more of a bonus for including more in your group


As an example I am currently reincarnating a Legendary Rank 29 Neutral Warrior and a Legendary GL Rank 34 Mountain Scout, the only ranks I bought were can_fly and nocharm on the warrior and can_fly, nocharm and 5 hr on the scout, I currently have 21 unused rank points on the Scout which is now level 30 again and almost ready to reincarnate a 2nd time.  The warrior I gave up on at lvl 27 because I just couldn't keep up with the scout level wise.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 02:15:09 AM by Attai »

Gnua

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Re: Reincarnation Thoughts
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2019, 08:13:57 AM »
The only problem I don't want to see is having people solo'ing/2 manning really hard stuff and inevitably stuff getting nerfed to compensate for the power of the characters.

This from the guy who according to rumor soloes amity and mystic king almost every wipe?

Gnua

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Re: Reincarnation Thoughts
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2019, 08:36:30 AM »
I want to start off by saying I love the idea of reincarnation...
I feel if you play with a group of friends or are in a clan then reincarnating is a selfish non-team player decision...
Reincarnations really hurt Dark Knights and Neutral alignments the most...

Would any of the following address these issues?
- changing the reincarnate requirement to be level 30 rather than 1x
- keeping arctic legend rank (only) upon reincarnation
- reduced rebuy coin cost for already purchased ranks
- changing aligned xp for reincarnates to look more like 100/75/50 more than the current 100/50/0.  (neutrals would then be something like 75/100/75 rather than 50/100/50)

It seems like the majority of the concerns are around the disincentive to group.  for example, the level 30 xp penalty, dk impunity, neutral xp all seem to have this common theme.

Kadaj

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Re: Reincarnation Thoughts
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2019, 09:17:30 AM »
The only problem I don't want to see is having people solo'ing/2 manning really hard stuff and inevitably stuff getting nerfed to compensate for the power of the characters.

This from the guy who according to rumor soloes amity and mystic king almost every wipe?


Well.....that's the thing. When I do play, I usually have pretty good gear and really good understanding of game mechanics. So I am able to do those things. Now, what has happened in the past is the Immortal staff will notice I am doing this, change said fight to make it harder. Hey, I'm fine with that. I love a challenge. However, what the inevitably does is buff the fight to where the average group of players who *SHOULD* be able to do it (before the buff) will get their shit handed to them due to the recent changes. I don't want to see that happen, as I want everyone to experience the same content and be able to do said fights. That's where I am coming from.

Attai

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Re: Reincarnation Thoughts
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2019, 11:32:12 PM »
I want to start off by saying I love the idea of reincarnation...
I feel if you play with a group of friends or are in a clan then reincarnating is a selfish non-team player decision...
Reincarnations really hurt Dark Knights and Neutral alignments the most...

Would any of the following address these issues?
- changing the reincarnate requirement to be level 30 rather than 1x
- keeping arctic legend rank (only) upon reincarnation
- reduced rebuy coin cost for already purchased ranks
- changing aligned xp for reincarnates to look more like 100/75/50 more than the current 100/50/0.  (neutrals would then be something like 75/100/75 rather than 50/100/50)

It seems like the majority of the concerns are around the disincentive to group.  for example, the level 30 xp penalty, dk impunity, neutral xp all seem to have this common theme.

Yes majority of my concerns are a disincentive to group especially on the hardest level.
Instead of reduced rebuy coin cost I think you should be given 100k every reincarnate, its hard enough to get to 1x that I don't think this can be abused and it helps offset the costs of rebuying ranks.

Gnua

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Re: Reincarnation Thoughts
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2019, 10:15:55 AM »
the Immortal staff will notice I am doing this, change said fight to make it harder. Hey, I'm fine with that. I love a challenge. However, what the inevitably does is buff the fight to where the average group of players who *SHOULD* be able to do it (before the buff) will get their shit handed to them due to the recent changes.

When something is too hard for Dan to solo, it is too hard for Myth's 8 best....

Kadaj

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Re: Reincarnation Thoughts
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2019, 12:04:29 PM »
"When something is too hard for Dan to solo, it is too hard for Myth's 8 best...."


You know, I never mentioned MYTH in my post. But I WOULD have liked to see MYTH's best 8 man try and do the Mystic King fight before it got 'revamped back to manageable'. Unless your tank was rocking Cyan Suit, Kraken Shell and a few other items, there's no way they were going to survive 2 rounds of that fight. So no, I am not saying that if I can't solo it, MYTH can't with their 8 best. I'm well aware that MYTH isn't the same as it was years ago. Knowledge freely flowing, people going out and actually exploring and doing zones is great and I'm glad more people are taking the initiative.

Just don't take it as a personal insult when there was none. You didn't see how the fight was changed and now you can!  If you can get there :)

Gnua

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Re: Reincarnation Thoughts
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2019, 10:54:10 AM »
"When something is too hard for Dan to solo, it is too hard for Myth's 8 best...."

Just don't take it as a personal insult when there was none.

No insult was ever taken, it's historical pattern that in order to prevent you from soloing something, it has to be too hard for the 8 best myth.  that may change next wipe and that will be a big step for the growing clans.

el conquistador

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Re: Reincarnation Thoughts
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2019, 11:43:06 AM »
it would be a really hard game to balance.  you don't want it to be too easy for these freaks of nature like kadaj but you don't want zones to be exclusively for 1 clan either.  the skill/knowledge ceiling is so high in this game it makes an enormous gap between a normal player and the best.

I get pretty frustrated sometimes but I think overall the immortals have done a really good job over the years of keeping the game interesting for everyone.  they probably suspect that someone is going to hit max reincarnates in 3 weeks and do some really game breaking stuff with it but they are still trying to do it for us anyway.

Kadaj

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Re: Reincarnation Thoughts
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2019, 12:19:28 PM »
I agree it's tough to balance around all aspects of the game. Who has what gear, class combo, time available to invest in a zone. The game is still going all these years and we the players that constantly come back wipe after wipe and the immortals who keep things spicy.

I enjoy putting input and reading these forums. I know I won't be playing next wipe but I still want the best for the game! So I'll throw ideas as much as I can.