Author Topic: Reincarnation  (Read 3466 times)

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Patpat

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Re: Reincarnation
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2019, 08:22:20 AM »
Pretty neat idea. I really like the alternative paths of character advancement

jwhite

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Re: Reincarnation
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2019, 11:02:34 AM »
this sounds amazing!

leveling is always my favorite part of arctic anyway.  if i make it to 1x and legendary i lose a lot of motivation to play since my goals have been reached and progress feels extremely slow after that point. 

if this reincarnation is implemented it would give me so much more to work on.  it would be incredible

Caine

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Re: Reincarnation
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2019, 11:43:43 AM »
The bonus ranks gained through reincarnation don't count towards the normal rank exp calculation or the normal rank cap.

I presume this still means we would need to reach rank 25 to legend? i.e. Rank 21 + 2 reincarnations wouldn't work?

adepali

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Re: Reincarnation
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2019, 12:19:59 PM »
The reincarnation ranks are like normal ranks for buying effects, they are just not included in the rank exp calculation. So it doesn't make any difference if you reincarnate at rank 15 or at rank 25, you get two free ranks and you need the same rank exp for the next rank as before.

SArT

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Re: Reincarnation
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2019, 12:33:15 PM »
Hey Xen

I really like the idea.

My only thought here is that it seems to be imbalanced slightly. If you have a buff pet that you get to keep you are much stronger and will level much faster than a class that has no pet.

I agree that legend status and legend ranks would have to go away. This is also about balancing. I have purposefully deleveled a legend thief to level 1 before just to see how fast I could get back to 1X. It is crazy easy and fast with the legend ranks.

SArT

Gnua

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Re: Reincarnation
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2019, 02:10:08 PM »
Clarifications:
  • The bonus ranks gained through reincarnation don't count towards the normal rank exp calculation or the normal rank cap.
  • Reseting ranks, especially legendary ranks, seems to be the biggest complaint. I'm leaning towards keeping standard ranks and reseting legendary ones, but this is still open to debate.

Thanks for the clarification on the rank points.  I suspect that resetting the "turn your character into an arctic legend" rank will result in players doing all their reincarnating before legendary and thus either delaying legendary (which could increase time where there are lots of people on and clans are co-operating out of necessity) or skipping the reincarnation system altogether. 

I dont mind losing the standard ranks or the legendary-only ranks.  The rank I would be most keen on keeping would be the "turn your character into an arctic legend".  I also dont mind neglecting my skilling until all my reincarnations are done.

I wonder if +2 stat falls into the "degenerate power creep" category (like steelskin for tanks or spellsaves and mindshield for curers) which is so good that everybody has to get it and then the fights need to be rebalanced.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 02:13:26 PM by gnua »

Malthros

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Re: Reincarnation
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2019, 04:51:30 PM »
Thank you for your feedback.
This is the current helpfile for my work in progress. Of course anything in here can change either before reincarnation becomes available or during playtesting.

Quote
REINCARNATION

Characters who have reached a high level of power can chose to reincarnate
and restart their life at level 1. To reincarnate, a character:

* Must be at the very end of level 30.
* Must have at least 15 ranks.

Reincarnated characters retain their name, gender, guild and alignment, but
can chose a new race, including exotic races. The new race must satisfy all
the normal restrictions of their guild and alignment. They also retain all
their money, equipment and pets; the pets themselves keep all their ranks.

Mages will retain their robe color, and will not need to retake the Test of
High Sorcery. Scouts, Paladins and Dark Knights will retain their path. All
characters will retain any progress towards quests.

Each character can reincarnate up to 6 times. With each reincarnation,
characters gain the following permanent bonuses:

* +2 bonus to a stat of their choice
* -1 bonus to SAVING_SPELL
* 2 ranks.
* 5-15 hit points, depending on their guild
* 20 movement points

Reincarnated characters have their skill points reset, and will need to
retrain them. Some memory of their previous expertise remains, so characters
will find that retraining skills will be much faster.

Spells, instincts and divine powers are a core part of a character's soul;
reincarnated characters will retain all their magical powers, but will need
to level up before they can use them.

All ranks, including Arctic Legend, will be reset and will need to be purchased
again. Legendary effects, skills and spells will be removed.

Each reincarnation will impose a penalty to all experience gained, so
characters will find it progressively harder to level.

Clarifications:

  • The bonus ranks gained through reincarnation don't count towards the normal rank exp calculation or the normal rank cap.
  • Reseting ranks, especially legendary ranks, seems to be the biggest complaint. I'm leaning towards keeping standard ranks and reseting legendary ones, but this is still open to debate.

Bonus ranks existing outside the normal system is perfect.  Doesn't get someone to legend faster and doesn't punish someone for reincarnating at the "wrong time" rank-wise.

I understand the reason for wanting to reset legendary ranks since being able to level with legend ranks would be extremely potent and let people hit their 6x reincarnations real fast compared to others.  I do think leaving the non-legend ranks intact would be good and is a bit more of an even playing field than being legendary at level 1.  Sure that will make leveling "easier" but rich players will rebuy their main ranks anyways and the xp penalty means that auto invis thief or auto steelskin tank is still going to take longer to hit 1x again.


I suggest adding a clarification to this part:
Quote
All ranks, including Arctic Legend, will be reset and will need to be purchased again. Legendary effects, skills and spells will be removed.

To make it clear that the purchase ranks are reset but the player keeps their current rank and has the RP refunded.  I can see the current wording being misread as "your ranks are reset back to rank 0."

Quote
Reincarnated characters have their skill points reset, and will need to
retrain them. Some memory of their previous expertise remains, so characters
will find that retraining skills will be much faster.

Does this mean characters will get some innate +learn with each reincarnation?  If so that's cool and would also be a nice additional buff for any casters who reincarnated and don't have all their spells yet.


And please make the xp penalty smaller for neutral characters.  Neutrals already level so much slower than Good/Evil characters that if reincarnation is a cumulative 10% xp penalty then even at R5 or R6 a Good/Evil will be able to xp at a rate close to the default for a Neutral.  As long as legend requires r25+ and lvl 30 that's going to be a big enough wait for people who reincarnate.

I wonder if +2 stat falls into the "degenerate power creep" category (like steelskin for tanks or spellsaves and mindshield for curers) which is so good that everybody has to get it and then the fights need to be rebalanced.

IMO content shouldn't be rebalanced around reincarnation.  If a clan of a dozen people take the time to reincarnate 6x on their mains then they should have an easier time of things than if they hadn't ever reincarnated in the first place and the rest of the MUD shouldn't be punished by having hard fights made harder or put out of their reach.  Plus while reincarnation is a nice power boost, I don't think it's going to be on the same level of legend vs non-legend.


@Adepali I'd suggest allowing reincarnated characters to roll new exotic alts at any level as well.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 04:53:26 PM by Malthros »

Malthros

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Re: Reincarnation
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2019, 05:01:51 PM »
Additional thought:  When you reincarnate can you keep rerolling or will a reincarnation be set at the default 'ideal' for their race?  IE, if a human barbarian's stats can hit 18 13 13 15 20 13 then reincarnating in to a human as a barbarian gives you those stats +1 to your original pick and +2 for your reincarnation stat bonus selection?

Or HP gains.  If those still have some randomness to them that could be annoying for someone who reincarnates and ends up on the low end of averages.  If Gains are normalized by lvl 30 then nevermind.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 05:07:51 PM by Malthros »

Gnua

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Re: Reincarnation
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2019, 12:35:29 AM »
Reseting ranks, especially legendary ranks, seems to be the biggest complaint... but this is still open to debate.

any chance of replacing the "superb skill requirements" with either a minimum level or dropping them to v.good?  skills training is just brutal right now. i'll skill to get legend, but there is no way i'm going to give up legend in order to skill.  i absolutely love the reincarnation idea but just cannot see myself participating after i can get legendary.  it will be like the medals and alchemy.  i absolutely love the idea and appreciate the hard work that goes into setting up such a system, but after weighing the pros and cons, i decided against it.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 02:35:44 PM by gnua »

Gnua

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Re: Reincarnation
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2019, 03:02:40 PM »
I am now unsure of the intent of reincarnation.  I used to be sure of the intent and my previous comments were based on that presumption.  But I now see several possible problems the reincarnation system could address. Depending on the problem reincarnation is trying to address, different mechanics might be called for.

- people quit or roll new characters AFTER getting legendary because they have nothing to do. This is what I originally thought reincarnation was for.  in this scenario, "become an arctic legend" is the one rank that should NOT be taken away
- people quit or roll a new character BEFORE getting legendary because they nothing to do after they hit level 28 other than grind their magikarp into a legendary garidos.  there is no satisfying progress or improvement between level 28 and legendary.  In this case removing the "become an arctic legend" rank is irrelevant.  For me the game currently starts at legendary and so anything that makes the pre-legend experience better or shorter would be welcome.
- the people who "race to legendary" enjoy too much advantage over those who take longer to skill and spell.  In this case, removing the "become an arctic legend" becomes the "core" mechanic as it means that the "slow to legend" people will eventually wind up with a better character than the "rush to legend people".  In addition the "rush to legend" people will then have to make a difficult choice between sacrificing the max power of their character or reincarnating and letting other catch up (because legendary is effectively delayed until rank 35 or so for the heavy reincarnaters).
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 03:05:10 PM by gnua »

jwhite

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Re: Reincarnation
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2019, 06:59:17 PM »
I am now unsure of the intent of reincarnation.  I used to be sure of the intent and my previous comments were based on that presumption.  But I now see several possible problems the reincarnation system could address. Depending on the problem reincarnation is trying to address, different mechanics might be called for.

- people quit or roll new characters AFTER getting legendary because they have nothing to do. This is what I originally thought reincarnation was for.  in this scenario, "become an arctic legend" is the one rank that should NOT be taken away
- people quit or roll a new character BEFORE getting legendary because they nothing to do after they hit level 28 other than grind their magikarp into a legendary garidos.  there is no satisfying progress or improvement between level 28 and legendary.  In this case removing the "become an arctic legend" rank is irrelevant.  For me the game currently starts at legendary and so anything that makes the pre-legend experience better or shorter would be welcome.
- the people who "race to legendary" enjoy too much advantage over those who take longer to skill and spell.  In this case, removing the "become an arctic legend" becomes the "core" mechanic as it means that the "slow to legend" people will eventually wind up with a better character than the "rush to legend people".  In addition the "rush to legend" people will then have to make a difficult choice between sacrificing the max power of their character or reincarnating and letting other catch up (because legendary is effectively delayed until rank 35 or so for the heavy reincarnaters).

as i understand it reaching legendary will be much easier after the first time.  skills will train up to superb much more quickly than before and you begin the game with your full equipment and a couple of ranks.

as for the legendary characters having to make a huge choice to scrap much of that progress and start fresh...couldnt that be a good thing?  i like the big decisions like that.  and people who dont want to do it dont have to.  it sounds like it could potentially be a wipe-long project if xp inreases every reincarnation.  so maybe staying with your first character will be the best option for some.

shardelay

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Re: Reincarnation
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2019, 07:41:33 PM »
A few thoughts:

1) Increased power:  I tend to like it. (make no mistake, this will be a significant increase in power for high reincarnation chars).  An extra 12 ranks is huge - thats an entire full immunity, or its just enough to allow the damage shield ranks to look mildly affordable.  An extra 12 to con/str/dex is great on a tank (I'll be taking max dex please thanks)  An extra -6ss... wow.  Add in some extra hp, moves, etc... for shits and giggles and this is a very large boost if you follow through with 6x

2) Content/replay-ability: Not sure i like this aspect - This is not really new content, but it encourages replay ability for the lvl 1-29 range.  I enjoy the high rank and higher lvls zones - this obliges the extra time spent to be at the low lvls.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, but i think it will be rather dull and feel grindy.  Sure, i have the choice to not opt in, but who wants to give up on power so ill probably opt in and be annoyed at the duplication of low lvl zones again and again.  Some PCs will burn out, some PCs love low zones and wont care.  Some folks will ignore it entirely - but i suspect not many will.

3) Grouping: I think this will fragment the player bases levels.  I don't think it will generate a lot of random LFG shouts.  Rather, i predict 2 people simultaneously deciding to reinc and powerleveling to 30 at lightning speed ignoring the world.  This may actually make it harder to group because of fragmented levels.  Not a huge issue, but sort of not great.  This will probably impact larger clans who are zoning more and will give solo players a lot more solo progress to work on.  I'll be annoyed that when I'm not reincarnating and want to zone my clan will all be lvl 14, and vica versa.  This is good and bad.

4) Exotic race rush - this removes the rush to legend/throw out char/make an exotic go to move.  I like that - always seemed weird to have a rush char and then start over again.

5) Re-level penalties: re buying ranks - not a big deal.  Cash comes and cash goes.  This is the penalty i care about the least.  Honestly - if I'm going too reincarnate at 1x i probably wont even bother buying most ranks anyway.  Ranks matter on big fights, but if I'm looking to maximize exp/hour ranks aren't a gigantic benefit.   When I'm leveling to legend, half the time I don't buy ranks cause I'm just saving up for legend.  Or maybe everyone will just buy only +dam ranks til they are 6x?

6) Re-level penalties: skilling again - at first this sounds really shitty.  Skilling is one of the worst parts of the game.  I guess this is offset by the fact that i don't need to skill unless i'm going to legend and there is no sense legending if i am going to reincarnate.  So I believe I would just skill up 1 weapon skill and ignore most everything else like field medic or battle cry until my 6th reinc.  In fact, for my first 5x i i would ignore most skills completely and just learn passively what ever i'm using.  That seems sorta weird, but i guess it makes the resetting of skills sort of moot.  Side note: Will i have a faster time skilling up on my 6th reinc on field medic if i left my field medic at awful 5x?

7) Re-level penalties: exp is slower.  That sucks.  I get why you want things to be progressively more expensive, but that just means increase the low lvl grind.  And the low lvl is pretty much is a grind.  Very few people explore at lvl 12 - almost every levels as fast as they can.  we call it a rush - we are all rushing!  Sure, i could stop and try to enjoy the scenery more - but I'm just not that sorta player. 

Do we think anyone will reincarnate much later than 1x and rank 15?  I'm guessing that a bulk of people will either never reincarnate, or keep reincarnating as soon as they can until they either quit or hit 6x.  So basically I think this creates a large delay in getting legends, but then makes all the legends far more powerful. 

It sounds to me like this will concentrate the bonus's on lower lvl's and front load the power curve at the cost of low lvl grinding - i.e. making people stronger BEFORE they get to very high ranks becaue they killed que-teh ALOT.

I like the general idea of reincarnation, and if the choice was take it as listed or ignore it, I would take it  because i think it's a large power increase (and i like power!!)  But can I ask what the intent is with the change?  What was the problem you are trying to solve?  I hesitate to suggest changes to the idea until I know what you are trying to do.  W'out knowing that the ideas will be all over the place.   

Hopefully the observations are helpful even w'out suggestions.


Jorake

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Re: Reincarnation
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2019, 06:39:41 AM »
It all sounds like great fun.

The main thing I would suggest is, if you are going to make the leveling harder, can we make skills WAY easier? Skill grinding for useless skills is probably the worst part of leveling a character. And if you are already working at like 2x the exp or whatever... grinding out some useless skill that you literally never use outside of needing it for legendary, will be very mind numbing. Thoughts?

Alecto

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Re: Reincarnation
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2019, 09:01:59 AM »
It sounds exciting. I am always up for a new challenge!

Gnua

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Re: Reincarnation
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2019, 09:35:00 AM »
Skill grinding for useless skills is probably the worst part of leveling a character.... grinding out some useless skill that you literally never use outside of needing it for legendary, will be very mind numbing. Thoughts?

I plan to do all my reincarnating before i legend (I'm guessing this will be once or twice).  I plan to neglect all skilling until my final reincarnation.  This will mean I do the legendary skill grind once and only once.  because you lose legendary status upon reincarnating, this system looks like it is filling in the "i have nothing to do between level 28 and rank 25" niche and that people will opt out of the reincarnation system after they reach legendary.  legendary is where the fun begins for me.  but i do understand the desire from designers to delay legendary... so anything that makes the pre-legendary experience not so dreadful is welcome.

I may be in a minority but in general I'm opposed to power increases (+stat, +hp, imm_charm, steelskin) for changes and would prefer quality of life (moves and regen, mass waterbreath) and utility (detects, free underwater action).  When power increases become available, everyone (myself included) takes it because it would be stupid not to and then the imms notice that people are steamrolling and then fights get rebalanced and the net result is that the power balance remains the same but the game is now more grindy.