Author Topic: New Players and Quests  (Read 2337 times)

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el conquistador

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Re: New Players and Quests
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2019, 08:05:23 AM »
I don't understand where this whole 'too many people know this so it's being changed' thing is coming from. Every wipe there's a few KWs that change here and there. It's not something new. Perhaps with more people learning these zones, they are just now noticing that the KWs have been changed?

hanlon was told directly by a staff member that is why a change was made

i have been suspicious of that before.  but yeah being told straight out like that is being told not to help people learn stuff.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 08:07:02 AM by el conquistador »

Iadus

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Re: New Players and Quests
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2019, 04:19:50 PM »
Just so we're clear, not all staff members are privy to the actual reasoning behind any changes, much less all changes. Staff have their biases and suspicions as well. I have never heard from anyone who actually makes changes that the reason was because too many people knew how to complete it. As has been said, there are keywords and combinations that change every wipe or so, but, the clues rarely change location, and are always at least SOMEWHERE to be found.

Willoe

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Re: New Players and Quests
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2019, 10:15:13 PM »
I think changing of kw's is a positive thing. It gives those who actually solved the zone something to do and is not overly difficult to resolve when you know the actual zone. I think the gripe is for the folks that got the info handed to them and then don't know how to solve it. That being said, I think there is certain information that should be common knowledge, and then other information that should be earned. I don't think anyone that actually solves the zones minds the kw's changing so much.

el conquistador

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Re: New Players and Quests
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2019, 05:29:50 AM »

why change existing zones that are not broken instead of just putting in new zones?  why change keywords or remove/move fights ever?

the elite players who are good at figuring that kind of stuff out and have plenty of time to solve it are fine.  a new puzzle to solve and more gear and spells exclusively for them.  along with those who are friends with the right people. 

but if knowledge starts trickling down to the plebs...  the people who have jobs and families or players who are just too dumb to figure out the puzzles without help.  that cant happen.  now keywords and zones have to change.  they are not allowed.  it is not for them.

it fits the theme for the rest of this wipe.  too many people are making it to legendary.  that is only for the most hardcore players.  casuals can be satisfied with their regular characters.  then jack up the difficulty on the dragons.  more content that is not meant to be for common players.  arctic is for the elite and how can they be elite without trash to look down on?

bapt this game.

eddiex

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Re: New Players and Quests
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2019, 11:02:48 PM »
I think changing of kw's is a positive thing. It gives those who actually solved the zone something to do and is not overly difficult to resolve when you know the actual zone. I think the gripe is for the folks that got the info handed to them and then don't know how to solve it. That being said, I think there is certain information that should be common knowledge, and then other information that should be earned. I don't think anyone that actually solves the zones minds the kw's changing so much.

Perhaps I will always be the devil's advocate, but I think there's a problem with the idea that changing kw's is a positive thing.  People who have made the "right" friends will always have an advantage when kws are changed.  Some people have not only been told keywords, but also how to find the keywords and solve the zone.

The fact is: Everyone who has played this game has been told super secret keywords.  There was many a time when a clan or two with a high immortal friend received entire zone notes.

However you acquire your knowledge, through forging bonds or adventuring through Krynn, there is a significant time investment.  Any person who has played this game at a high level knows how long it might take to get in the good graces of an elite player to the point where they will share their secrets.  Setting people back because they took an alternate path to knowledge just for the sake of doing it only serves the people with more knowledgeable friends.

The effect of changing kws is to make certain aspects of the game more exclusive.

In my opinion, a more fair way to change a zones kws is to do what has been done with the Mystic Vault.  Change the location of the kws, the clues, and how they are acquired.  This would help to even the playing field for both the people who were told the kws and those people who were told how to solve the kws.

The purpose of changing a KW is to make people resolve it, right?  It's not just to make items more exclusive (benefitting a few old timers or people with knowledgeable friends)… right? lol

I honestly, think kws should not change as more people knowing how to do something fosters competition, conflict, and interaction.  These are pillars of the Arctic experience.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 11:05:36 PM by eddiex »

Alecto

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Re: New Players and Quests
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2019, 10:31:44 PM »
I think the mystic vault changes this wipe were a good example of how keyword changes should happen. Everyone had to start over and resolve the zone, and it took a group of people working on it pretty continuously to finally solve it. I think those sorts of changes should happen every wipe for the most powerful items.

It should take people time and effort each wipe to earn the most powerful items regardless of clan affiliation, personal friendships, etc. It also means that no clan can just win the first week and monopolize the elite shinies. A similar vein runs through the decays this wipe - it is hard to monopolize the elite gear because most of it decays within a few weeks.

While these changes might seem frustrating they actually make the game more fun for a casual player who is not in an elite clan because gear is loading most of the time. If you don't want to deal with decays then just collect less elite gear. You can cobble together a decent set which lasts 6 weeks to 2 months without decaying, but if you want a crapload of +dam realize you are going to need to commit a lot of time to maintaining that set.

Rhak

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Re: New Players and Quests
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2019, 02:20:34 AM »
Mystic vault is a sort of outlier in the way zones work nowadays, most of the zone can be explored completely solo without much of a hassle, and its not so much of changing keywords as shuffling up a puzzle.  In another zone if you know you need to climb the cliff, or cut down the tree, it's hard for us to do much to change it in any interesting way because the players are usually set on a certain path and the keywords are used as hurdles.  Mystic also barely has any built in coding (specs), so there's not much chance of breaking things if you change them, where other zones can have hundreds on many objects, mobs, and rooms, and connect to any other zone(s) in the game.  Mystic is around 25 years old, most zones that are within the last 15 or so years are infinitely more complicated, and worse as they are newer.  Icewall is one example, where it's complicated to the point where it can't really be meaningfully altered anymore unless it gets a huge revamp.  I reworked the quest parts of Mystic this wipe but have barely been on since due to work, when I would pop on though all I heard were complaints about it being too hard :/
There's not really much stuff in the game that should suddenly become undoable because a keyword changed.  If somebody tells you a keyword that had a clue behind it without ever revealing the clue, it's a bit whiney to be mad about it being changed if you were too lazy to ever look into it further.  A lot of people being excluded from exploring zones lies on being afraid to die in a place they don't know where you chance losing everything while gaining little to no knowledge.  Knowing keywords to a zone is nothing compared to knowing what is coming up ahead of you, or just having an idea of how to prepare and survive or recover.  If you can clear or survive a zone you can explore at your own pace.  People who have general knowledge of things will always have an upper hand just because you know where to focus your attention after things change, or even in new areas, the rest lies in the thesaurus.  If you find yourself having no idea how to figure out keywords, instead of asking people for keywords, ask them how they explore.  The games a lot more complicated than it used to be, but a huge part of exploring used to just be testing out mechanics in a way.  If you see a hidden branch in a room and you try to 'get branch', there's different messaging depending on whether there is an object physically in the room to interact with or if it's just a little flavor description.  Knocking on, unlocking things, etc. can similarly give different messaging depending on how a zone is built.  Locating random colors, locating walls, locating keys, tracking mobs, randomly teleporting to see if you can get to the other side of an inaccessible area.
People get paranoid that elite players are only elite because there's some clandestine handing off of information from some immortal friend or some secret inner circle, 99% of the time it's just because they are looking at everything five times and know little tricks that you can't even tell they are doing as you get dragged around.  If you have to wait for people to trickle you keywords and can't be bothered to do even a minimal amount of exploring, it won't matter whether new zones go in or old ones get changed, you won't be reaping the benefits of any of it.

Nostramazos

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Re: New Players and Quests
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2019, 05:45:48 AM »
To Rhak:

You make some very good comments. The how you explore is key here and the understanding of game mechanics may also be hidden knowledge. It should not be this way. The 'huh?' message needs to be replaced completely with an indication that you are doing something wrong but also an encouragement that you are on the right path.  Several zones do that already but not all. This should be a focus for a wipe or so. But yeah help the players spent more quality time in figuring out the zone. That being said, I have grouped with elite solvers and they do enjoy the current way of solving zones.

Another general comment is that you should allow casual players like myself an exploration mode where specific sets of eq for exploring are provided. This should be average eq that will do the basic. An autofly, a light, some damage dealt. You can have add said exploring gear throughout the game. This gear will not be lost if you die. I think this makes sense. When I die...in arctic I mean, I really really don't want to cr but I also don't want to bruise with a crappy sword or wait for a repop or what not. I should have my gear ready to go for one more death.

Some suggestions

Nostramazos

ps I was joking about the suggestions cause I am an overlord.

Kadaj

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Re: New Players and Quests
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2019, 08:33:52 AM »

 If somebody tells you a keyword that had a clue behind it without ever revealing the clue, it's a bit whiney to be mad about it being changed if you were too lazy to ever look into it further.  A lot of people being excluded from exploring zones lies on being afraid to die in a place they don't know where you chance losing everything while gaining little to no knowledge.

I think this is honestly the biggest hurdle for people trying to explore. If they received a log with a keywords in it and they suddenly change, they get frustrated because they can't find the new one. Also, with so few people playing, right now is the absolute best time to go exploring. If you die, you can put together a new set in a day or two.

Knowing how to explore is absolutely key. I love solving shit, I love exploring new zones. People don't see that I spend hours in a zone, locating, temping, teleporting, testing things out. They just see that I know how to do a zone and wonder 'which imm told him this information'

I think people need to stop getting attached to their gear and get out there and try some shit. I usually explore fully geared and know how to CR if I have to. Get out there and look around, folks!

Willoe

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Re: New Players and Quests
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2019, 04:20:11 PM »

"bapt I just died in shadow with all my gear, bapt it im done!"

He doesn't joke about exploring with full sets of eq!:)