Author Topic: weapons that require 2 hands to use  (Read 1771 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Gnua

  • Immortal
  • Elder
  • *
  • Posts: 510
weapons that require 2 hands to use
« on: January 29, 2019, 09:00:23 AM »
in previous wipes it seemed the "heavy weapons" did not scale well with +dam and so they were used
 - by casters who could not dual wield anyway
 - by barbarians who could get extra strikes

but now that they are even heavier, casters dont use them.
and now that the damage has been lowered, even barbarians look like they are better off dual wielding

does anyone use weapons that require 2hands to use anymore?

Kadaj

  • Zoner
  • **
  • Posts: 203
Re: weapons that require 2 hands to use
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2019, 06:43:58 AM »
There's only I think three weapons that are worthy of being 2 handed for barbarians. Silvi smith hammer, shoal flail or soth sword. Any other combo of dual wield is probably better, the only downside is being disarmed. I'm still unsure what the change to two handers was for....I don't recall ever hearing 'man these barbarians' damage is out of control!' Who knows, maybe there's some master plan.

Dagda

  • Fodder
  • *
  • Posts: 62
Re: weapons that require 2 hands to use
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2019, 07:58:53 AM »
I forgot that my plan was to make a Barb named Maxwell and get the Silvi hammer so I can name him Maxwell Silvi Hammer and have that song stuck in my head everytime I play him.

Boylein's axe isn't awful either...


Gnua

  • Immortal
  • Elder
  • *
  • Posts: 510
Re: weapons that require 2 hands to use
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2019, 11:24:15 AM »
There's only I think three weapons that are worthy of being 2 handed for barbarians. Silvi smith hammer, shoal flail or soth sword. Any other combo of dual wield is probably better, the only downside is being disarmed. I'm still unsure what the change to two handers was for....I don't recall ever hearing 'man these barbarians' damage is out of control!' Who knows, maybe there's some master plan.

I think there was a time when even the soth sword was no better than an enchanted 4d4 + 2d5 once the tank had 2 damage (which they could probably get from natural strength alone).

kanu

  • Fodder
  • *
  • Posts: 88
Re: weapons that require 2 hands to use
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2019, 12:51:59 PM »
Soth Sword is large damage, roughly the same as wielding two weapons. With wardance or frenzy, this damage is doubled, and so the character with no gear and just a good weapon is doing roughly the same damage as 2 people, some of the time. I think that this was almost true with most other two handers, with the factor being between 1.5 and 2 times as much damage as a regular person without gear.

Now if someone is wearing +5 damage and gets some additional damage from strength and ranks so their total damage is +10, let's say, a typical person with normal weapons would get roughly the equivalent of 2 more weapons as a result of these bonuses, but they'd had to do some work to do this. A person with the same gear, strength, ranks but using a two hander receives the same bonuses, some of the time, and ends up with a rough equivalent of 5 weapons instead of the 4 weapons the non-barbarian, non-shaman person has.

Seems like if you reduce the damage of two-handers slightly, then the playing field for damage between barbarians and shamans and the other classes is a bit more balanced, even with gear included? There's nothing stopping a barbarian from dual wielding, so it's really only shamans that get the biggest hit here.

Gnua

  • Immortal
  • Elder
  • *
  • Posts: 510
Re: weapons that require 2 hands to use
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2019, 09:44:40 AM »
There's nothing stopping a barbarian from dual wielding, so it's really only shamans that get the biggest hit here.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with shamans or barbarians, but it seems like weapons that require 2 hands to use just arent worth wielding.  It seems even stuff like a dragon lance and the soth sword are rather "meh, thanks but I'd rather dual wield an enchanted 4d4 and a 2d5".

Oligo

  • Immortal
  • Fodder
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • Favorite Zone: Dunmir
Re: weapons that require 2 hands to use
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2019, 08:04:05 PM »
does anyone use weapons that require 2hands to use anymore?

For Lorebot users, relevant queries might be
Code: [Select]
!query class=two_handed_sword
!query class=claymore
!query class=bastard
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 08:15:26 PM by Oligo »

Heo

  • Fodder
  • *
  • Posts: 68
Re: weapons that require 2 hands to use
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2019, 03:27:14 PM »
First off - I don't think barbs were ever really intended to be MASSIVE damage dealers.  More damage sponges I've always got the impression.

And to really do the math, we'd need to know the percentage of extra attack on a legend barb wardancing -

Assuming 60% extra attack

something like 0.40 (1) (18+x) + 0.60 (2) (18+x) = (.4 (1) (12 + x) + 0.60 (2) (12+x)) + (1) (1) (9 + x)

Assuming that average damage on a two hander is 18 and average damage on a prime is 12 and offhand is 9.  Then solve for x as the +dam, noting that some is probably built in with str bonuses, though I don't know what that is exactly.

But basically if you solve for x, that's when it's equal, and then anything higher than that means that the advantage is to the dual wield vs. two hander.

To me the issue with barbs/shamans is that the two handers are weirdly grouped.  Most good but not elite two handers are avrg damage of around 18 or 19 (e.g., 5d5 +3 +3 or 6d5).  But the really amazing stuff is 6d6 +3 +3.  That's average damage of 24.  There's not much stuff with avrg damage 20/21/22/23. 

I would say if anything was to be done, it'd be filling in that gap.  Because right now it's kind of like going from <good> to <superb> and skipping the middle ones. 


Also, I'd like to say I decided to play a barb and a shaman, both for the first time ever.  Normally I hate neut, but I did gully and half ogre so kept them there.  Jesus they are strong together.  Wow.  Fun duo to play.  I can't believe shamans used to be stronger, that's crazy. 

hanlon

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 15
Re: weapons that require 2 hands to use
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2019, 02:44:19 PM »
I think the only real problem I have with these two-hander changes this wipe is they didn't make any sense at all. Like you have two-handers that can be popped on Day 1 of a brand new wipe that are better than two-handers you would need an entire 8 man legend to pop. You also have two-handers in the game that are nolimit being better than two-handers that are limited. Seems a tad backwards. The change felt very last minute and rushed. Whoever got left in charge of this nerf clearly only had half the information they needed to make logical and good changes!

Jorake

  • Zone Leader
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
Re: weapons that require 2 hands to use
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2019, 04:24:17 PM »
bapt off with the nerfs. CHAOS BAGS FOR EVERYONE!!!