Author Topic: What would it take to ever make me play again?  (Read 49364 times)

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Hoodoo

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Re: What would it take to ever make me play again?
« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2013, 05:44:01 AM »
Everything that Nostramazos just said.   Yep.   That's exactly how to describe it.  I couldn't find the words to say it better.  I love Myth when it's just like the Maza he described.   Honestly, the times I didn't enjoy it as much were the times when we were being pulled into the 'other' group by 'elite' leaders who wanted to turn us into a 'real' clan. 

Turns out, they had some of that 'cheating' flair too.  Can't have Myth without the DTs and the Whee!

Jason

Aemon

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Re: What would it take to ever make me play again?
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2013, 06:25:56 AM »
Hi, long time reader, first time poster. I generally avoid the forums because the thread trails are predictable. The original poster (OP) complains about something, Myth or Wild pile on the whine, Maza add sarcastic humor, some imms chime in, Daniel and Corey make rational points, and then Hoss gets bored and locks the thread. This pattern is then repeated. Like Arctic, it's a good waste of time.

I'm the current chieftain of SoB in title, but within SoB we all have an equal voice. In the past month alone, we have grouped before with Myth in Ravenshadow and helped Maza finish Cloud Kingdom in full and have no animosity towards either clan. But sometimes in Arctic you gotta kill people because of direct or indirect association. Other times it's because you need gear because of unforeseen circumstances, this is the nature of a game with PK. I have seen/read/heard the accusations of botting from imms and mortals alike. I could point fingers and name names of bots in our enemies, dele and BiA, but there's no point in driving away Arctic's most experienced players and the folks who provide us competition. I certainly don't want them deleted or abyssed. Any report of some bot army killing everyone on Arctic is false.

The fact is, in the past month, one mage player from SoB has comprised nearly half of the pk deaths. And the remaining PKs are split between a dele bot trio, the failed Dargaard mage bomb and resulting fallout, Russians, and 10% other.


2013-06-01 04:27:29 Draoi killed Nimeria.
2013-06-02 04:46:26 Essovius killed Elhoce.
2013-06-03 10:59:07 Chorillo killed Kleg.
2013-06-03 11:08:41 Drizzle killed Alanis.
2013-06-03 14:16:51 Essovius killed Mellune.
2013-06-04 12:24:51 Bram killed Bram.
2013-06-04 17:07:37 Olas killed Opree.
2013-06-05 14:36:30 Lashric killed Qwine.
2013-06-06 01:09:20 Yhonk killed Rippit.
2013-06-06 11:59:33 Lulu killed Ephraim.
2013-06-06 15:59:36 Kog killed Lashric.
2013-06-07 08:17:36 Lulu killed Attai.
2013-06-07 10:00:54 Qwine killed Narotras.
2013-06-07 14:03:49 Pango killed Jozheg.
2013-06-08 01:22:38 Narotras killed Gulwar.
2013-06-08 01:52:43 Swibelgluck killed Kirito.
2013-06-08 21:57:46 Veigar killed Gulef.
2013-06-10 22:26:05 Veigar killed Lashric.
2013-06-12 08:21:56 Kip killed Ludruid.
2013-06-12 08:39:20 Mumu killed Kip.
2013-06-12 22:01:14 Alanis killed Agravaine.
2013-06-13 08:41:30 Gron killed Gron.
2013-06-13 16:10:45 Mumu killed Kip.
2013-06-13 21:32:58 Mumu killed Narotras.
2013-06-13 22:27:46 Olas killed Jay.
2013-06-14 03:42:14 Essovius killed Dion.
2013-06-14 12:57:01 Jozheg killed Jozheg.
2013-06-14 19:08:30 Essovius killed Vindoloo.
2013-06-14 19:19:43 Essovius killed Quentas.
2013-06-15 13:22:03 Moinier killed Veigar.
2013-06-15 17:59:43 Kharne killed Domri.
2013-06-15 23:33:26 Inverse killed Wieramon.
2013-06-16 11:59:59 Nimnogg killed Mumu.
2013-06-16 12:00:15 Cathan killed Swibelgluck.
2013-06-16 12:00:28 Nimnogg killed Essovius.
2013-06-16 12:10:15 Gran killed Yhonk.
2013-06-16 12:10:20 Nimnogg killed Aemon.
2013-06-16 12:10:31 Nimnogg killed Inverse.
2013-06-16 12:10:36 Spew killed Royderage.
2013-06-16 13:15:11 Chorillo killed Laozi.
2013-06-16 13:28:06 Chorillo killed Olas.
2013-06-16 22:49:34 Essovius killed Kenable.
2013-06-17 01:06:09 Essovius killed Rypt.
2013-06-17 08:57:23 Swibelgluck killed Lashric.
2013-06-17 11:13:07 Muhnnummun killed Muhnnummun.
2013-06-17 18:15:51 Essovius killed Waol.
2013-06-17 21:27:48 Qwine killed Pinster.
2013-06-17 21:27:48 Lonestar killed Ramsey.
2013-06-17 23:31:54 Chorillo killed Schiff.
2013-06-17 23:42:48 Chorillo killed Wormic.
2013-06-17 23:43:22 Essovius killed Syncill.
2013-06-18 20:09:11 Mumu killed Gord.
2013-06-19 07:44:50 Atla killed Krombacher.
2013-06-19 07:47:20 Kirito killed Mondrian.
2013-06-19 18:14:45 Alcibiades killed Alanis.
2013-06-19 18:51:56 Essovius killed Lashric.
2013-06-19 19:38:29 Essovius killed Gragi.
2013-06-19 21:36:26 Blake killed Aabb.
2013-06-19 21:36:28 Veigar killed Biaze.
2013-06-19 21:36:28 Veigar killed Muhnnummun.
2013-06-20 04:16:57 Essovius killed Lashric.
2013-06-20 11:49:10 Shiva killed Oira.
2013-06-20 16:53:26 Stupid killed Rumplestiltskin.
2013-06-21 00:17:12 Essovius killed Naphtali.
2013-06-21 22:53:49 Kirito killed Lashric.
2013-06-23 00:49:34 Inverse killed Thoven.
2013-06-23 01:33:06 Qwine killed Hughes.
2013-06-23 09:37:46 Kuhkuhkuhkobra killed Cinthir.
2013-06-23 13:20:23 Essovius killed Kiras.
2013-06-23 13:20:35 Essovius killed Worbar.



« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 07:00:03 AM by Aemon »

Basher

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Re: What would it take to ever make me play again?
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2013, 09:39:25 AM »
PKilling happens, that's a risk you run on the PvP full loot MUD.

Arctic is gear competitive and clan based warfare is a resultant social dynamic. Clans are not necessarily groups of best friends or even cohesive followers of one leader. They are cooperatives pursing game goals.

Flushing out unknowns is a natural result of the highly competitive clan situation and dynamics, as the pklog shows it is not a new invention by SoB or something that only they do. dele does it, Wild has done it, go back in history and Brotherhood and Shriners even have done it, and in a good 85% or 90% cases, most of the clan intel is on the nose. This is reinforced by experience, where some chars that have been ignored mostly turn out to have been the decision that comes back to bite you in the butt.

We do have unfortunate collateral damage however and most clans are considerate enough to return gear when a mistake has been realized. This depends on wether the victim's eq or whining is seen as convincing or lying BS, or even if he runs his mouth enough to have annoyed the hunters or not.

Flushing out unknowns is a time-honored and well defined battle strategy with a strong grounding in competitive logic. It is however NOT random. There is nothing random about it. It serves very distinct purposes.

1) It keeps the enemy from using non-tagged or "unknowns" to repop gear or to regear
2) It keeps the enemy from making new characters that can then ambush you
3) It can load extra gear that high rents cause the hoarders to transfer out to other chars

You can avoid it by keeping channels of communication open with the other clans. Not always, but quite often (depending on how easy it is or how likely it is they may tip off the suspect), especially of late due to the declining pbase we tend to ask or receive inquiries from other clans about unknown chars to clarify their identity if suspected as an enemy alt. Unfortunately this does leave the newbies in a bit of limbo.

Similarly we see "newbie clans" dragged into the wars because they have indirectly stepped into the warzone. None of the "real clans" really care for the rubbish that qualifies as gear on that tier, unless they are really really hard up. Typically they step into the warzone through actions seen as assisting the enemy clans. These are not unknown rules, they are time-honored arctic traditions that are well defined and clearly known.

You do not have the right to whine about being dragged into the war if you have put yourself in the firing line.

1) Group warring clans at your risk - this always runs the risk of running into an unforseen battle situations that involves your carebear clan
2) Harboring warring clan members or their multies because you will be liable for their activities
3) Help warring clans gain xp, regear or repop items i.e. group with them at all

The recent spate of whining by Maza / Myth can be directly tied to taking one of the risks above and having it go against you. In which case your only hope is good PR, most clans are generous to newbies since there is no point in killing them really. It just depends on much their activities have been an annoyance, how their PR with the other warring clan is, how diplomatic and sanguine you are about it, how much your clan mates run their mouths, how much of a dick the warring clans want to be.

If you do have any "real gear" however, you are always game, be prepared to defend it, that is what is Arctic is about, if not unfortunately either Arctic has to change or you have to quit playing this game.

If you want to have a discussion about pk or excessive pk, you cannot have one without taking onboard the social dynamics of the game that drive it. The above post is because I see a serious lack of the complainers for change trying to address the issues that are part and parcel of the above governing principles.

btown

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Re: What would it take to ever make me play again?
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2013, 01:24:22 PM »
all these points are way to long to read..  quit derailing this thread!  this is about shitty xp tables!

RaVaN

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Re: What would it take to ever make me play again?
« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2013, 02:55:43 PM »
@Basher

  "Flushing out unknowns is a time-honored and well defined battle strategy with a strong grounding in competitive logic. It is however NOT random. There is nothing random about it. It serves very distinct purposes.

1) It keeps the enemy from using non-tagged or "unknowns" to repop gear or to regear
2) It keeps the enemy from making new characters that can then ambush you
3) It can load extra gear that high rents cause the hoarders to transfer out to other chars"

  You ignore the fact that this just leads to lots of 1vsuperiority and ultimately leads to no big fights...all of which is boring as shit.

  It works and there is no argument about that IF THE GOAL IS TO MAKE PEOPLE QUIT!.  So rather than a vibrant wipe filled with large clan battles...you end up with trash killings and no enemies to fight, which leads to yelling about the game is dead and make it wipe...and so forth.

  It is a lazy long term strategy that is based only in ego that is detrimental to the game and continues to be (in my opinion) the major reason that is not RL based that has led to a continuing lower player base.  Tradition does not equal good sense, but as always, too many people live in the instant gratification mindset and have little or no foresight of cause and effect in the long term.

 


Basher

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Re: What would it take to ever make me play again?
« Reply #65 on: June 25, 2013, 03:34:30 PM »
all these points are way to long to read..  quit derailing this thread!  this is about shitty xp tables!

Level one up already. If you are just looking at level 1 to 1x you are on the wrong boat. If you are looking at level 1 to Legend then the current setup is actually way faster.

1) You don't have to be 1x to get rp's and you don't even have to be 1x to be legend!
2) Level up in a group of less than 5 and more than 1 and you get bonus xp.
3) Just get your lvld up buddies to spam you quest xp if you are really too lazy but you will still have to grind it out at the top to get to Legend.

@Ravan

Maybe it is boring and maybe it does lead to no big pitch battles and totally suck when you are the one down and out, I've been in both situations as have most warring clans and maybe it is even a strong contributing factor to people eventually quitting them.

The truth is no one gives or receives any quarter because at that level the game is so intensely competitive because of the setup of the game social dynamics have just evolved in that way. Opt anon and none of the other cosmetic changes work because underlying fundamental dynamics of that social interaction remain unchanged - The need to prevent the competition from sneaking up on you once you get on top.

No top clan wants to give the other one the room to rebuild and launch a sneak attack of unknowns and put them in the shitty spot once they have the upperhand. Once you are top it also just as insanely hard to dislodge that clan by new entrants for the wipe. The history of Arctic is littered players so buff that they just had to log to make whole 10 mans recall and rent, we have moved a bit from those days. Maybe we need to move further?

That's just the brutal truth, because the elite gear like nobashes and spells like stun/nightmare makes things so lopsided in any evenhanded battle that you want to both monopolize them and deny your opponents the opportunity to get their hands on them for as long as possible. You can blame it on the dickish greed of the guys on top or the result of the sneaky subterfuge of the ones below trying to work their angles through trash pk, sneak attacks and other means, but believe me chasing down unknowns is a shitty and annoying job too, usually undertaken by the most bored or the one with most time in any clan, unfortunately getting lazy about this is just bad strategy if you don't want to be one whining in the forums and quitting.

We don't live in an ideal world, where everyone will behave in the manner we want them to in order for things to work the way we envision they should. There is a reason it is this way, and if there needs to be change, there needs to be a change in the governing dynamics.

Glad that the conversation on this has atleast started.

btown

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Re: What would it take to ever make me play again?
« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2013, 03:46:29 PM »
Only reason I made this thread was because I have became extremely bored of xping and it got so bad I decided to stop altogether..  that being said I still want to play but the xping is to hard.  I also don't like the fact I have to type and read a lot...
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 03:57:26 PM by btown »

RaVaN

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Re: What would it take to ever make me play again?
« Reply #67 on: June 25, 2013, 04:08:52 PM »
@Basher

  So from what you posted, the goal of large clan battle is to force your enemies off the mud and keep them off until both sides get so bored they quit.  It's a winning strategy from a competitive point...but how is that fun?  This is primarily why I don't join big clans since it just is not fun for me win or lose.   

  I am beginning to think that a good solution to this mindset is that after the first big clan ambush both clans get deleted and a big news page gets added that says "CLAN X WINS"...then the competition can continue without the silly unknown chasing going on...this would also allow the smaller clans to be able to compete for the top gear when they then get murdered, both clans deleted...and the cycle continues.  Granted there would be issues that would need to be sorted out but I would think that would be more fun for the top clans and would retain more players throughout the wipe.

Rezin

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Re: What would it take to ever make me play again?
« Reply #68 on: June 25, 2013, 04:33:18 PM »
I agree with ravan, the big clans that like to be elite and do big clan battles and get bored when there isn't any, is it really constructive to ambush every single clan that may give you some real competition so they can never get a leg up and provide any real challenge?  I would imagine once you ambush everyone and make all the other clans give up that is when the 'carebear' clans start getting jumped and killed due to someone having a idea that its one of your enemy's unknown level 10's...and if collateral damage is just part of it, how should a neutral clan go about ending the clash if they don't want to be involved, sure mistakes happen, but then the neutral clan has to get peace from 3 different factions within the same clan, and they will still jump the neutrals if they happen to be with one person who didn't want peace, now you have made any neutral clan people give up and quit as well, if that is the goal then well done.  The elite clans/players that are active every wipe have all been around for 15-20 years, that part of the mud population cant come to an understanding between each other and at least keep the shit to themselves?  The way things are going now, SOB has run out of elite players to war or compete with, that's why it is completely impossible for maza/myth to get peace, your main pkers are bored and will kill anyone they can that left.  Killing to try and stamp out peoples low level unknowns is one thing, when you decide anyone who is opt anon must be the enemy and has to die, that discourages everyone, and its done under the attitude of kill first see what gear they have, sort it out later, 50% chance they will be belived and actually get out of the system. Unless a different attitude is taken with the way this works, your not just pking your enemies, your pking the entire mud and it will be dead soon enough.

Kragg

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Re: What would it take to ever make me play again?
« Reply #69 on: June 25, 2013, 05:18:58 PM »
@ btown

The thread has been hijacked.  Get over it!

@ basher

What a great set of points.  That touched on lots of stuff.

I agree it is the top clan's job to compete as intensely as possible to stay on top and use every even sort of reasonable tool at its disposal to do so.  It's, ideally, the beaten clan(s) job to use every reasonable tool at its disposal to reverse the loss.  The 'king of the hill (best eq and spells)' domination of the mud is the 'fun' payoff for elite players.  Thats arctic at its best.

Now, due (over a long time) to:
-equipment, skill and spell quality inflation
-a reduction in the number of casual and neutral players amongst which to hide and rearm
-the ease of finding anyone on the mud

The 'King of the Hill' game is over after the first few big battles though there are still a few strategies like playing at off peak hours that still work for beaten clans to reequip.  The wipe goes stale once these battles are decisive.  Its in no one's interest that you actually achieve what you have to strive as hard as you can to achieve.  Not even your interest.

In my view, it is a staff role to manage tweaks that prolong the 'king of the hill' phase of the wipe as long as possible. 

Addressing the first point is difficult and IMO a big part of what happened over time.  Changing this is labor intesive, unpopular and rarely 'fair' although balancing, I imagine, may be part of that whole LUBE thing. 

Its possible to address the second and third points with minor tweaks that don't sissify the game (offer comments on my suggestions?) and don't affect the pk nature of Arctic.  Basically, Arctic has to be that mud that if you come out of the inn, your stuff is in play.  Period.

It benefits everyone though to have some casuals and new players so that great ones of each can perhaps add to Arctic's story.  It also benefits everyone that beaten clans can pick themselves up, dust off and get back in it.




Basher

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Re: What would it take to ever make me play again?
« Reply #70 on: June 25, 2013, 05:42:10 PM »
@ RaVaN & Lipman

I do not disagree with either of you. On introspection, maybe the unstated aim of all the clan war strategies adopted eventually since time immemorial has eventually just amounted to forcing the opponents off the MUD and into slinking around the corners as desperate hunted dogs. In effect the most effective means for a clan to dominate and keep their shinies does indeed seem to be to stamp out all competition. That may also be the reason why the vicious cycle is so ingrained in the system of avenging your dog days and showing no mercy to the other.

Then again, clans sometimes also do sue for peace and are granted those as well, but few are willing to put up the indignity of it to their pride imposed by the conditions of eq surrender to the other that they would rather quit or have the clan disband with the stragglers who still want to play then returning to the mud as scattered remnants until the next wipe. The history of Myth and Maza also attests that after getting knocked up a bit for ending up on the wrong side of the fence they have eventually been peaced, so it's not really an inextricable cycle if you can swallow the price to satisfy some over inflated schlongs.

About the neutrals or casuals, I don't really know a solution to reliably separate the slinking combatants hiding in the population from the non-combatants except for a fundamental shift of the MUD from pure full loot PvP. If there is no alternative, (haven't really heard any practical alternatives) the situation isn't really going to go away. Yesterday it was someone else, today SoB, tomorrow someone else. The clan strategies are driven by both game mechanics and the social and player responses to them, so if some rule or function changes, i.e. the bounty board or opt anon the pbase is only going to respond by finding a workaround strategy. The typical response to being picked on in Arctic has been the advice to gang up and stand up to the tyrant and beat them and take their shinies, but history shows us that just results in a new tyrant to replace the old.

It could also just be the intrinsic dynamic of any closed social system which places a premium on scarce resources and then encourages competition for those resources. Our pbase has just lost its earlier tenacity and zeal to endlessly endure in this vicious cycle for various reasons. A cycle which has been the fundamental backbone character of our beloved ArcticMUD for the last few decades.

@btown

Stay quitted while you are ahead, if you do level you know you are only going to quit again because of the boredom of chasing shitty decays and ranks....life is good, enjoy it!

Nostramazos

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Re: What would it take to ever make me play again?
« Reply #71 on: June 25, 2013, 06:15:54 PM »
@Aemon, Basher, Kragg, Lipman, Ravan and everyone!

 I will insist in reminding you that concurrently with what happens at the high end game is what happens down below with smaller clans. These two must co-exist.

 Basher offered some arctic traditions that have always been the case. In the aftermath of the terribly planned botched suicide SOB attack against Dele both Myth and Maza got involved BY their own mistake. Ideally, it shouldn't be like this, but it is. Following that mistake the two Maza involved left their peaceroom and fully eq went and sat down Solace [] asking SOB to come murder them to correct the mistake.

 And then my dear Basher comes...the dickish attitude of the warring clan who refuse to be reasonable even demand from Maza to hand 15-damage eq to make amends (Maza has never had 15damage eq in all the wipes together). If not we would be hunted forever.

 Forever is a big word but not for people who somehow can play 24/7. PKilling is good. Relentless PKilling is bad. Aemon says most SOB do not go around pkilling but I will reply that the few that do are SOB tagged and never sleep and keep harassing Maza tagged targets all times of day.

 And I ask all of you. Notwithstanding the arctic traditions which are what they are, can this player base suffer the the power tripping of some people? From down below I can tell you no. You have not met the newbies that quit because of SOB tagged players. We have. You don't necessarily care. We do. The waaah waaah is not for ourselves per se; Maza has ruined our enemies clothing by bleeding on them (blood won't come out with wine, it's a lie, you actually need to let it stay in a bucket full of bleach for 24 hours and then rub rub rub), we have died countless times against Shriners, BSP, Moloke, Soth, Dts and we gave them bread in return. So in terms of whining,
please...big clan tears will drown us every time they lose a ring.

@btwon and Hoss. So, hmm, I like the xp table and erm...btown is wrong and hmm...I hope that is enough to keep this thread going and hmm if I see btwon anywhere I will die on him cause he doesn't agree.

 oeoe to all of you

 Nostramazos thinks the world would be a better place if everyone had a red button up their butts.

Jorquin

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Re: What would it take to ever make me play again?
« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2013, 06:26:26 PM »
actually i find the smaller clan members tend to cry a lot more

generally about "being drawn into conflict", "why is this happening to little old us", "the sky is falling on us", "unfair", "evil", "no life", "ruining the game" etc

edit: vote yes on proposition fix xp tables
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 06:28:12 PM by daniel_1 »

btown

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Re: What would it take to ever make me play again?
« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2013, 06:29:55 PM »
you suck man you suck..

2 types of players

pk roll: you pick pk char now you can get all the eq you want kill who you want gain ranks and legend wear all eq you want but you are playing pk mud

non pk roll: you pick non pk char now you don't get shit you don't get ranks your max level is 25 max skills are very good you don't get good eq but you also wont get pkd

can these be 2 options next wipe please

btown

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Re: What would it take to ever make me play again?
« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2013, 06:30:31 PM »
you suck was @ nostro