Author Topic: Class nerfs over the past few years + 8 man groups is why rise wins constantly  (Read 7875 times)

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Kir

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So over the past 8-10 years just about every class has been nerfed into the ground DPS wise. That and the addition of 8 man max groups is why RISE is the only clan that can do high end content (while Rise is active). The reason is this, because RISE has 4-5 16-24 dam tanks with spec weapons, we are barely able to do the high end content. Since gear is limited, if RISE has 5 20 dam tanks, no other clan is going to have 1 10+ dam tank. I know you may think "well I can get ranks with +dams, and then i'll be 10+", but no that is not true since you need to spend a mandatory 11 ranks on imm gas or imm heat if you want to do cyan\blazewight.

So now I will go through all the classes and how they have been nerfed into oblivion over the past 10 years.
1)Thieves: solo they are still elite no doubt. Completely useless and insulting for grouping however.
- Flank was an amazing thief skill and allowed them to have high success in groups.
- Unbalance: Used to work on any mob with high enough dex, now doesn't work on any mob, useless skill now, useless class for grouping.
2)Black robes: nightmare still useful for stunning lower end high zones, but blacks are useless in actual big fights
- Acid mist: used to be the bomb.com for dps against mobs who weren't imm acid. Now its barely worth memming.
- Nightmare: used to do 350 damage after maxed out. Now does 20 damage, lulz.
3)White robes: cleanse is useful for high end zoning. Transference saves time but otherwise useless after prep or the new ring stuff.
- Shards of arcanna: originally the bread and butter of white robes, was OP at first doing up to 400 damage which is OP obviously, was nerfed into oblivion, useless now.
4)Red robees: Still useful for defensive pk and offensive pk thanks to tether, otherwise useless in high end zones
-Thunderbolt: Used to be able to do 200-250 damage if fully buffed and casted via spellcomponent. Now might as well mem force bolt
-Spelltrap: used to work great in pvE, nerfed into oblivion and only useful in pk if you get lucky and it goes off.
5) Druids: useful day 1-3 of wipe for refreshing and fights that stoneskin is helpful, useless in high end zoning
-healing cloud: the only spell that ever made druids worthwhile in a group. Could heal 250 a round if the druid had a good set. Made people survive in pk for longer than 1-2 rounds. Was a great spell. Was useful for nomagic fights, made druids really fun. At first they nerfed the nomagic part, then nerfed the double cloud. Now completely useless, I still dont comprehend the retardation of this nerf.
-Primal fury- Great spell for middle of the pack clans to utilize to do dps enough for higher end game fights. Now i don't even think it does anything. Nothing that i noticed anyway, not worth memming.
6) Mountain scouts: Back 5 years ago a mscout with a 23 dam prime and 8 dam was 2-5x oblitting. Clan zoning could be built around them
-Anger: nerfed so hard after hoss got jealous of ilya that its basically useless now
-Evade rank: when the evade rank existed, scouts would own pwsing mage groups. Now they get stunned like everybody else.
-Scout HP: used to be able to get 600 hp, now they can get 1 rounded by area in end game fights with their druid hp. Not worth playing after the DPS nerf.
7) Sky scouts: to this day they are good if you have a ton of dams on them, again lesser clans with no gear could use them to do dps and make up for lack of gear. Now just another gear dependent class.
-Volley- legend scouts use to be able to 6xannialate with mediocre gear. Now you massacre\barely plunk with 5 dams. Ruined the class for lower clans.
8) Ocean scouts: when they had legend pirhanna and legend shark they could do some decent dps
-Pirhanna: at legend used to go off 8x. Did great dps. Now they are baptin horrible unless you are a soloer with infinite heal pots and 15 dams. Better off playing a thief.
9) Warriors: still my favorite class however used to be much much stronger. Now you need 20 dams just to double anniahlate in pk.
Punch: used to do great damage, now nerfed so bad I dont even bother buying the legend rank. If the skill didn't have 0 lag i wouldn't use it at all.
Bash: When i had humas and 16 dam i could do 120-150 damage from a punch\bash combo. Now does ok damage but the only reason to bash really is to lag\sit the opponent. Still ok but used to be decent dps in zoning as well.
10: Paladins: ok for zoning if geared correctly in certain circumstances. Legend freedom makes them a must for the highest end fights, however useless for everything else.
Strike: used to be the goto dps for a legend paladin. It would basically  be an automatic oblit if the paladin had decent gear. Another skill that lower-mid clans could use to make up for being under-geared. It made up for them not having target because even if they were on the wrong target they could just oblit whatever target they wanted every round. Now its nerfed into uselessness.
11: Barbarians: a DPS barb used to be a thing thanks to assail because area dps made up for lack of target
Assail: used to be able to do 400 dps area. I agree that was OP, but it was nerfed to do 50 dps and barely land.
Lack of target: How the bapt with all these fights in the game again that have non-stop repsawning\rescuing mobs can you have a dps class without target? LULZ
12: Dark knights: used to be good with stance, impair and thrust.
Thrust: Could do 200 damage if geared well and in stance offensive. Nerfed so hard not worth it to play the class anymore.
Impair: was great in defensive and offensive, now im not sure it does anything anymore.
Stance defensive: Dks used to be able to tank very well. Was nerfed so hard that dks can basically no longer be a tank option

So.... after reading all this... and taking into consideration that with all the massive class nerfs AND an 8 man group: Is anybody at the last bit confused as to why Rise is the only clan that can run high end content? (or whatever clan who pops all the gear when Rise quits). Seems blatantly obvious. Nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf, + 8 man groups = the demise of mid-tier clans of having any hope to running end game content.

Hopefully this will be a wake-up call to the players to petition to the immortals to fix the game. Either bring the group max back to 10 or fix all all the retarded nerfs so neutrals and mid-tier clans can have a chance at doing anything fun in to game, popping spells, popping eq, and giving a fight to Rise\Core. Until then, prepare for more RISE domination.


kanu

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The #1 reason RISE has dominated the past few years is play time. Nothing else.

During a rush at the beginning of the wipe, I'm lucky if I get two hours play time in a row, let alone actually participate in the rush. This is true of most of my former clan mates (who have now all pretty much quit for good) leading to us being far behind most of the wipe for one factor only.

Kir

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The #1 reason RISE has dominated the past few years is play time. Nothing else.

During a rush at the beginning of the wipe, I'm lucky if I get two hours play time in a row, let alone actually participate in the rush. This is true of most of my former clan mates (who have now all pretty much quit for good) leading to us being far behind most of the wipe for one factor only.

Lol the only reason you have less playtime is because you are too scared to pk and get ran off the mud by those who aren't scared of pk. And still I am sure you have more playtime than I do this wipe, so theory is invalid, so lets get back to the topic at hand.

kanu

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Kir,

Nearly this entire wipe I've soloed because hardly anyone I know plays any more. I have at most 10 maybe 12 total days playing time the entire wipe. Every previous wipe we fought RISE, your clan's playtime was 2 to 3 times as much as ours, at least.

How else do you think RISE ends up with so much gear? We both know it's not game knowledge, that appears to be roughly equal between RISE and WILD (at least compared to other clans) - although this wipe with hardly any WILD playing at all, RISE has a large advantage here over most other clans.

Your theory that class nerfs are the reason other clans can't compete is almost certainly not true. Early playtime, especially, and the ability to bring out 10-12 people every time we managed to get 6-7 online two-three wipes ago, is the primary reason you won those wipes.

David

blackmagus

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Lol the only reason you have less playtime is because you are too scared to pk and get ran off the mud by those who aren't scared of pk. And still I am sure you have more playtime than I do this wipe, so theory is invalid, so lets get back to the topic at hand.

Precisely the reason why there is such a small active player base, RISE runs off all other players.

Kir

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Lol the only reason you have less playtime is because you are too scared to pk and get ran off the mud by those who aren't scared of pk. And still I am sure you have more playtime than I do this wipe, so theory is invalid, so lets get back to the topic at hand.

Precisely the reason why there is such a small active player base, RISE runs off all other players.
Kir,

Nearly this entire wipe I've soloed because hardly anyone I know plays any more. I have at most 10 maybe 12 total days playing time the entire wipe. Every previous wipe we fought RISE, your clan's playtime was 2 to 3 times as much as ours, at least.

How else do you think RISE ends up with so much gear? We both know it's not game knowledge, that appears to be roughly equal between RISE and WILD (at least compared to other clans) - although this wipe with hardly any WILD playing at all, RISE has a large advantage here over most other clans.

Your theory that class nerfs are the reason other clans can't compete is almost certainly not true. Early playtime, especially, and the ability to bring out 10-12 people every time we managed to get 6-7 online two-three wipes ago, is the primary reason you won those wipes.

David

Lol... its legit impossible to make a thread anymore and mention rise and not have the thread not become anti-rise propaganda. Well, the point of the thread was to make it so you guys can compete but I guess nobody's interested so you can all continue to get dominated and we will continue to dominate with minimal effort. Enjoy

Dagda

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Well said and let's also keep in mind that the players who used to play all the time are now in their 30s and 40s. No time to play :).

The 8 man group idea was to allow for zones to be retooled for smaller groups, but with nerfing classes at the same time it had the affect that the groups that have more play time have the chance to play high end content. Which is fine if the result you want is a continually dead mud. Consider your player base and that its aging - also player base consider the game you love. If you want to kill it - continue with pkilling randomly, continue with excluding others from your groups. Continue soloing ad nauseum. I myself will always help anyone who wants to group, who shouts that they need items/money/advice.

Oh and the multiing? That's gotta stop. It's getting out of control again.

reed23

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Playtime - LOL.  No matter what rush it is, CORE or WILDS or KA or whoever you want to name is on 24/7 the first 3 days just like the rest of us.  Haters gonna hate, that's just how it is.

I agree with the initial post.  A lot of nerfing has been going on with classes over the past handful of wipes.  I'd like to see some of the offshoot classes get some love again.  I'm a huge advocate for pushing group limits back to 10.  The wipe is when people come back to play, and the bottom line is the 8 man group doesn't help out with inclusion into the main group.  Also, I've noticed that the "weak" non-legend classes almost never can make it into the 8 man group (mages, shamans, scouts, thieves, druids, etc.)  I'm not sure why moving the group size back to 10 would be a bad thing.  As was stated in the initial post, that should give some more flexibility and fire-power to the clans/groups that don't have 20+dams and the best sets in the game.  Hopefully that will make them more willing and able to try the zones and content that they want to.

blackmagus

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Lol... its legit impossible to make a thread anymore and mention rise and not have the thread not become anti-rise propaganda. Well, the point of the thread was to make it so you guys can compete but I guess nobody's interested so you can all continue to get dominated and we will continue to dominate with minimal effort. Enjoy

This isn't a post offering suggestions on how to make the game more enjoyable or even to offer a friendly competition. What this is is a small group of players who have successfully dominating the MUD offering their opinions through a spokesperson on how to make the game a better fit for them. Yes some of the nerfs were heavy handed, but all of that is irrelevant considering RISE does not allow anyone else to play to their full potential.

Neutrals? Randomed
Rival Clans? Warred and griefed until they simply cannot leave peace.

You claim you want to offer more competition, yet you end your post with a clear taunt that you will continue to dominate and run the game to your satisfaction.

Untagged players should be exempt from player-killing unless they choose an option at creation to be PK-OK

Wars between clans should be controlled by immorts. Intent to war should be declared with 24 hour notice with terms offered. If the terms are unfair such as "delete all your legendaries" or "give us all your limit 5 or less items" or "we want to control the game, to hell with everyone else" the petition for war should be denied. The duration of the war and thus the allowed PK should last for a set time period, be it a day, a week or a month at the longest with a minimum of two weeks between petitions.

Kronos

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This game is knowledge based. If you allow other unknowns into your groups they tend to log the run and then use the information to figure out the zones on their own. RISE does not try to exclude others. Our groups are typically full of real human players who are in our clan during the times when we are playing.

I just find it funny how this forum continuously points fingers at RISE for "randomly pkilling and running off players". Over the past 2 wipes, we have reduced pkilling to a level that almost makes the game not fun. We do kill players we are at war with and their geared mulits. Almost without fail, over the past 2 wipes, anyone who has been caught in the cross fire or killed by mistake has had their gear returned.

Rise is not killing this game. We are having fun and trying to play within the rules. Believe it or not, we have made conscious changes to our attitudes toward other players and our play style. We are not the clan who is abusing botting nor trying to run anyone off the game. We want there to be more players. We want there to be more top tier clans. We want to war. It's fun. Let's all try to stop the "Rise is killing the game" shit and focus on trying to provide the immortals/creators with solid information they can use to fix this game we all love. Jack took his time to lay out some of the issues he sees with classes. Let's let this thread focus on that.

-Jon

Dagda

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I understand the concern of sharing knowledge, and I'm not calling on you specifically to group people but more that there needs to be openness in general to new players and neutral players joining groups and letting them learn the fun of the game. It's not all about PK and if it were then this game would have been dead long ago.

Helping people get opportunity to explore and learn the game seems like a way to create the possibility for new rivals and in such those new rivalries would help to foster a competitive play environment, making it better for everyone. Make the low end of the high zones a bit tougher to encourage this. Soloing these zones seems to be the opposite of encouraging people to learn zones and enjoy the game in that manner.

Kir

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Lol... its legit impossible to make a thread anymore and mention rise and not have the thread not become anti-rise propaganda. Well, the point of the thread was to make it so you guys can compete but I guess nobody's interested so you can all continue to get dominated and we will continue to dominate with minimal effort. Enjoy

This isn't a post offering suggestions on how to make the game more enjoyable or even to offer a friendly competition. What this is is a small group of players who have successfully dominating the MUD offering their opinions through a spokesperson on how to make the game a better fit for them. Yes some of the nerfs were heavy handed, but all of that is irrelevant considering RISE does not allow anyone else to play to their full potential.

Neutrals? Randomed
Rival Clans? Warred and griefed until they simply cannot leave peace.

You claim you want to offer more competition, yet you end your post with a clear taunt that you will continue to dominate and run the game to your satisfaction.

Untagged players should be exempt from player-killing unless they choose an option at creation to be PK-OK

Wars between clans should be controlled by immorts. Intent to war should be declared with 24 hour notice with terms offered. If the terms are unfair such as "delete all your legendaries" or "give us all your limit 5 or less items" or "we want to control the game, to hell with everyone else" the petition for war should be denied. The duration of the war and thus the allowed PK should last for a set time period, be it a day, a week or a month at the longest with a minimum of two weeks between petitions.

Bro in every thread you repeat the same bullshit. "Rise attacks neutrals", "Rise runs off all clans"... I am still awaiting any proof of this and you never provide any proof when I call you out. This is the THIRD thread in a month you stated an opinion but were unable to back it up. Rise attacked core this wipe, thats it. We left Wild, KA, Danes, Ahma, completely alone. We did recently attack NEP clan but I dont think even they really care as it is just in good fun. So please, TELL US ABOUT ALL THE NEUTRALS AND CLANS WE PKED!?!?! The only clan we attacked, CORE, still playS!!! So if you are using logic, then the only clans we attack are the ones who continue to play, so therefor we should attack all clans! So now you can stop being a moron.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 08:49:05 PM by Kir »

Chisul

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Just a second perspective on the nerf applied to Mountains. Now I didn't play a mountain when anger was disgustingly bugged and there were some folks abusing the bug, so my perspective is limited to the last four or five wipes.

HP reduction hurts a little, and evade feels just about right in its current form. I dodge most area, but when it hits...my mino saves make it hurt bigtime.

As for the damage, my legend mountain Leonite hits ridiculously hard. Granted, it's full legend with 8 instincts up...but my gear blows.

I regularly mutilate wearing a woodman set and using a bloodstained battle axe. One damage rank, and nothing shiny on my char. Leonite usually full obits when bursting and with a legend roar can easily wipe out some pretty serious mobs. Leonite is surely far from stacked in the eq department, especially since my fine mahogany ring decayed. All that said, the damage potential is unreal. Adding in thrash, whip specs, ravage specs, roar and anger, and I'm having a hard time agreeing that DPS on mountains have been nerfed enough to damage play.

Kir

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Just a second perspective on the nerf applied to Mountains. Now I didn't play a mountain when anger was disgustingly bugged and there were some folks abusing the bug, so my perspective is limited to the last four or five wipes.

HP reduction hurts a little, and evade feels just about right in its current form. I dodge most area, but when it hits...my mino saves make it hurt bigtime.

As for the damage, my legend mountain Leonite hits ridiculously hard. Granted, it's full legend with 8 instincts up...but my gear blows.

I regularly mutilate wearing a woodman set and using a bloodstained battle axe. One damage rank, and nothing shiny on my char. Leonite usually full obits when bursting and with a legend roar can easily wipe out some pretty serious mobs. Leonite is surely far from stacked in the eq department, especially since my fine mahogany ring decayed. All that said, the damage potential is unreal. Adding in thrash, whip specs, ravage specs, roar and anger, and I'm having a hard time agreeing that DPS on mountains have been nerfed enough to damage play.

Well that is certainly news to me and I appreciate the addition to the thread. I am not sure if changes have been made since the last time I looked at mscouts so maybe I am wrong and they were re-buffed after being nerfed. Do you feel the hp is ok for end game fights??

Chisul

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HP drops have increased my death rate for sure. Getting an unlucky save certainly means my Mountain sucks up more heals that could otherwise go to the main or other chars. Selfishly, I'd love to have a 600+H Mtn running around but I don't think that particular buff would go far in improving gameplay.

For the vast majority of fights, I think the HP is probably about right. For some endgame content having low H really ups the requirement for solid prep, and may preclude a mountain from coming at all knowing how quickly the char could die (or how many heals it would eat to stay alive).

i know we got in the weeds a bit based on your original post, much of with I agree with.