Author Topic: Multi-ing / Botting  (Read 42188 times)

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gulca

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #90 on: August 19, 2016, 11:56:05 PM »
If we do allow botting... it will be like 10 myth clans running around mass ripping all day instead of just one. Thats all that will really happen..

one day they will learn jumping off solace tree achieves the same result with much easier CR.

monty

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #91 on: August 20, 2016, 04:11:35 AM »
Let em Multi.

Hell people have been doing it for wipes upon wipes upon wipes anyways.

Just let it happen and see how it goes.

Bot's arent all that great in PK situations anyways and so what it people can do every zone with only a few players online? Isnt the game itself dwindled down to such a small base of players already that its not going to hurt anything.

Old rules for a different game.

Toinu

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #92 on: August 20, 2016, 04:34:26 PM »
For the one asking about the code and how it's done, since i have played a MUD that allowed multi'ing and encouraged it, ZMUD allows multiple windows to be opened at the same time. Here's how it really works:

*** ZMUD mud list ***

1) Go to the zmud mud list. Create a connection to arctic mud. This will be your basic configuration file for all your players. You won't play per say with this connection. Right-click/properties, look at subfolder and primary file. Something like subfolder "arcticmud" and primary file "articmud.mud". Load/save generic scripts to this connection and you will see how it will apply to all your players.

2) Create your 1st player. Create a new connection to arctic mud. Right-click/properties, it has 3 sections:

- MUD: Make sure Icon/Session ID is your player name. ZMUD screws this up when you create it;
- Character: Put your name and password if you want a generic script to automate login by using something like #TRIGGER {^What is your name?} {#SEND #USERNAME} or something like that. I forgot. But that allows you to auto-login all your chars just by clicking on them. Watch out for newlines and such so you don't get triggered by players to send it.
- Files: This is where it happens. Make the subfolder the same as in 1). Use in the INHERITED section the same as in 1) (ie, articmud.mud). Then for primary file, make it your player name. Ie, Toinu.mud. When you make modifications to this player in game script-wise, only toinu.mud is changed. But it also inherits all scripts from 1).

3) Create 2nd player, follow same guideline as 2).

4) So... how does this all fit in? Open your zmud mud list, click on every char, a tab opens up for every one of them, and they can all auto-login to boot. Switch player by clicking on the tabs that opened. It's like a windows taskbar.

*** ZMUD commands ***

#ALL sends the same command to all windows. Ie, #ALL drink water.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 04:38:11 PM by Toinu »

Toinu

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #93 on: August 20, 2016, 05:14:44 PM »
How multi'ing worked is that bosses were given IP levels. If you were above that IP level (#multi with same IP) in the same room as the boss he would cast deadly area spells. Illegal multi'ing became logging characters from other IPs to bypass that.

eddiex

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #94 on: August 21, 2016, 12:06:28 AM »
How multi'ing worked is that bosses were given IP levels. If you were above that IP level (#multi with same IP) in the same room as the boss he would cast deadly area spells. Illegal multi'ing became logging characters from other IPs to bypass that.

This honestly sounds amazing. I really am not of the ilk that it is hard to spot bot squads. Maybe not 100% effective but if you've played with people who use them, there are very obvious indicators and tests you can do. Not sure how difficult it would be to add this code or if any imms are willing to step up and be an unbiased bot squad nazi. Imm me and give me the power to investigate lol.

Don't even need to delete them if there is reasonable suspicion, just drop entire squad in dt. They will learn not to cheat or risk having their time wasted.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 12:10:13 AM by eddiex »

JTPimpin

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #95 on: August 21, 2016, 09:17:28 PM »
thats a bad idea because there are some people who play from the same ip. ill have 2 people on my ip this wipe but its my brother not a multi.

Gramm

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #96 on: August 21, 2016, 11:56:05 PM »
To all the people who keep trying to convince us all that bots arent that good at pk, i call bullshit, 2 healer types set to autoheal someone at fair is pretty damned cheat, dont kid yourselves, bots can be very efficient if the person behind them is as brilliant as half of the people ive met on this game. I would go as far as to say its actually stronger and more efficient than human healing in most cases.

If the only way to defeat a bot group is with bashers that are not always available.... while the bots are ALWAYS available... bots will likely win quite a few battles against real players... you can fool a few people im sure with the inferiority claims, but I have witnessed what good bots can do....and i call shenanigans on anyone who says they are inferior, it all depends on the puppetmaster folks. and the intended target(s).

eddiex

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #97 on: August 21, 2016, 11:57:18 PM »
I think you misunderstand the post JT. The poster was presenting an idea for making limited IP based multiing legal, though I suppose it could pose a problem if you are one of the few people who play Arctic in the same residence as another.

@gramm good point. And before Oligo comes in here telling us all how all you have to do is one round the group leader. Easier said than done, particularly if they do decide to reduce pvp damage by any percentage.

A no bash bot healer with 16-20 heals? Hello Troggs, good game. (forgot about that guy, didn't you Zozen?)

But all you have to do is land a stun...

Seems there are a lot of contingencies you must make to render a bot squad ineffective.

I.e. How to have a shot at killing anyone with Aymahn, Bloat, Jaune grouped? Requires at least 3 legend bashers with bash triggers. Punch leader, bash assigned target and hope their bot  basher doesn't render one of your bashers ineffective. And good luck if their Druid is legend and has healing cloud stacked with healing done.

And while you have to orchestrate and coordinate so many things just to viably defend yourself against a sophisticated bot group, rest assured, he has the difficult task of typing a few commands to adjust his settings when he logs on.

Oligo is amazing at what he does.  I think he suggested people want to allow only two chars at once because that's what they have experience with and playing more characters becomes increasingly more difficult.  Not exactly the case. Although someone had to develop class specific coding, none of that matters in real time.

If the immortals decide to allow hire-able npc(s) as one imm suggested, they would be wise to inquire if Oligo is interested in developing it. These npcs should be no less powerful in any degree than a legendary <insert class here>. If they are not, we are left with the same inequitable situation where rule conforming players are @ a disadvantage to system abusers.

I think some people who have shown support for a 2 multi per IP system actually have a better reason than being incompetent in the ability to operate more than 2. There is a new dynamic to playing two characters simultaneously (without full automation) that some people find enjoyable (myself included the relatively few times i have done this). 2 chars is sufficient for increasing your zoning capability 10 fold (as opposed to solo, i.e. Try to solo storms, dko, ft, etc vs. two man [only one of these will be successful unless you are prepped to the teeth and loaded with EQ]).

It is the minimum compromise to allow people the ability to play this game in times with extremely low population, without handing away the keys to the kingdom and having a bot free for all.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 01:08:19 AM by eddiex »

Oligo

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #98 on: August 22, 2016, 01:06:44 AM »
Humans beat bots every time in PvP in evenly matched situations with enough ingenuity. Typing a simple four letter word such as roar will do the trick.


453H 148V 1X 72.03% 5760C [Me:Good] [Lulu:V.Good] Mem:1 Exits:NESW>

Gran roars.
Mondrian shrieks in terror!
Gran slowly fades into existence.
Mondrian panics, and attempts to flee.
Mondrian flies west.
Veigar shrieks in terror!
Veigar panics, and attempts to flee.
Veigar flies south.
Moinier shrieks in terror!
Gran slowly fades into existence.
Moinier panics, and attempts to flee.
You feel a slight chill.
Royderage shrieks in terror!
Gran slowly fades into existence.
Royderage panics, and attempts to flee.
Royderage flies south.
Chorillo shrieks in terror!
Gran slowly fades into existence.
Chorillo panics, and attempts to flee.
Chorillo flies west.
Yhonk shrieks in terror!
Gran slowly fades into existence.
Inverse shrieks in terror!
Inverse panics, and attempts to flee.
Inverse flies north.
Swibelgluck shrieks in terror!
Swibelgluck panics, and attempts to flee.
Swibelgluck flies south.

453H 148V 1X 72.03% 5760C [Me:Good] [Lulu:V.Good] Mem:1 Exits:NESW>
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 01:09:46 AM by Oligo »

eddiex

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2016, 01:08:31 AM »
Hey smart guy. Make your bots keep cloak of bravery up. You're welcome.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 01:11:08 AM by eddiex »

Oligo

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #100 on: August 22, 2016, 01:12:09 AM »
Hey smart guy. Make your bots keep cloak of bravery up. You're welcome.

I'm not saying roar will work today, but I'm sure folks can think of other tactics.

Zozen

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #101 on: August 22, 2016, 02:20:02 AM »
@gramm good point. And before Oligo comes in here telling us all how all you have to do is one round the group leader. Easier said than done, particularly if they do decide to reduce pvp damage by any percentage.

A no bash bot healer with 16-20 heals? Hello Troggs, good game. (forgot about that guy, didn't you Zozen?)

Nah, I didn't forget about Konstantin. Not sure I would call him a "bot" since he was behind the keyboard at all times on only one character that I was aware of. Script healing is always going to be superior to human healing.   Scripted healers with nobash have proven themselves throughout the ages. I played around with Lasse's heal script at one point a dozen or so years ago and realized that it took away from the game that I love. When you don't have to think at all about healing then it made the game incredibly boring. Leading and healing without using triggers or gagging anything and no output windows and using very simple aliases--first 3 letters of a name--made zoning fun for me... What I loved about leading/healing was that it took an incredible amount of concentration to do it well and having killed everything (up to when I retired) in the game and done every major fight in the game I feel like it was worthwhile.

Bot/scripted healers (either with someone at keyboard or not) will always be superior to human healers if the script is good.

eddiex

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #102 on: August 22, 2016, 03:09:21 AM »
I agree 100% with the idea that takes away from my intrinsic experience playing this game.  I too use minimal actions and very few aliases (even in the times when I have played two characters) and enjoy the raw playing experience.

I was merely pointing out that it is a slippery slope.  1 live player to a character but nearly fully automated, does not necessarily require any attentiveness. What happens when 5 or more are fully scripted, at the keyboard but are playing LoL while the leader drives the train.  Where do we draw the line as a community?  If advanced scripting is considered acceptable, then how do you definitively determine if a real player is behind they keyboard or a bot on a proxy?

I have no issues with scripting, botting, multiing, if that is the accepted convention of the game.  However, if the staff chooses to continue the complete ban, how do they intend to enforce it (so that there wont be inequitable benefits for those who get away with it or are turned a blind eye to and those who abide by the rules or are punished for breaking them)?

I know it's a lot to ask.  In my opinion, enough positive steps have been taken to renew my interest in the game regardless of the outcome of this issue.

Zozen

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #103 on: August 22, 2016, 03:21:38 AM »

I was merely pointing out that it is a slippery slope.

I agree.

Jarrad

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #104 on: August 22, 2016, 07:35:53 PM »
Firstly there is only one point here that matters. Imms do not have time or resources to hunt down every bot or multi. IF YOU CANT STOP IT DONT TRY.

Secondly this game has been continuously coded in such a way that automation and scripting is easier and easier. There is no reason why the game should prompt you to punch or kick or use your instincts etc. The group command has been continuously fine tuned for heal scripts etc  this makes me believe there is unspoken encouragement for botting and scripting by those who have developed this game.

Finally I remember many wipes ago using whispering wind to make wild healers, might have even been troggs, heal cyan bloodbane. As oligo has pointed out bots can be bapted up, not necessarily easily, but if you can get the bot to read the right txt you can make it do surprising things (if the coder hasn't done his job properly)