Author Topic: Multi-ing / Botting  (Read 22736 times)

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Gnua

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2016, 11:31:53 AM »
Then why are we even having a discussion of allowing botting or not. If people will just find a way, I don't see why there are 2 pages full of discussions on something that people can do anyway.

the theory is that there are 'honest' people out there who dont multi and instead log off when they cannot find a group.  if they were allowed to multi the speculation is that they would start doing a zone and invite a friend to join them when the friend logged on.  from my experience, this is a reasonable speculation.

although i do not multi, i do play a shaman and used to solo ct, spider queen, drac tower, shayds with my spirit 'multis' when no one was on.  usually while i was doing these zones, a friend or two would eventually log and they would join me.  then a real leader would log, see the group, and we'd start steamrolling.  but a few weeks ago, they changed the pet system (and possibly for good reason seeing that shamans are completely overpowered) so that the spirits would foom more often on a dodge.  now when i try to solo these zones, i lose spirits more quickly than i gain them.  knowing that i cannot solo these zones anymore, i now just rent when no one else is on.

as to the fears that legalized botting will create an escalation, perhaps we could try it and see if the fears are justified?  the reason i actually think that people will stop at one multi is that most people who already multi only run two characters at once.  i think i've known dozens of people who multi but only two who play more than two characters at once. my guess is that multiple bots are too much of a pain.

jingo

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2016, 01:15:48 PM »
I don't multi because it's against the rules.  2 at once is still a limitation, but the difference between 2 vs 3-10 and 1 vs 3-10 is huge.

Beyond that, I've played on some MUDs where multi-ing is allowed.  With just 2 characters, heavy scripting isn't a huge benefit.  But once you start to get to 5+ it can help a lot.  I've even made a custom client for it that uses HUDs and automatic command routing to make playing 5+ characters a lot easier.  It also has "bot mode" that could run some zones with zero input by myself.

Oligo

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2016, 03:00:20 PM »
Oligo is like the guy who runs a marijuana grow syndicate and doesn't want it to be legalized unless he stands to benefit, since it infringes on his business.

Are you going to start renting out ips and bots in your proposed pay-to-multi scheme?

I lol'd. The irony of your analogy coming from you isn't lost on me.

I like your proposed PaaS (platform-as-a-service model).

Oligo

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2016, 03:02:09 PM »
my guess is that multiple bots are too much of a pain.

This is the real truth.

Gyp

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2016, 04:09:32 PM »
I'm always torn on Botting / Multi-ing.

First off though, they are the same thing.  At first it might not be, but it always eventually turns into being the same thing.  Eventually you need a healer, then you need a basher, then you need a mage, then you need a refresher, etc etc etc.  Then you think "bugger!,  I can't run these 5 characters myself, this is just too tiring and I just died because of not being able to alt tab or click over here fast enough", Now, enter the bot.  Starts off small, then grows.  Eventually, you're a bot master.  Therefore, they are the same, one is just a more infant stage of the other.

Another game some of you might be familiar with that allows botting is Everquest.  I've played that game for a long long time (barely shorter than I've played MUD).  I've botted upwards of 18 characters at one time in that game (there are some sweet programs that make it very easy to do) and the one thing I've learned from it is this:

Botting being allowed in an environment where people also do not bot makes things extremely unfair and it becomes simply a battle of "who has more bots" and everyone who has zero bots, quits.  simple as that.

Now obviously botting in Arctic might not be as simple as botting in everquest because you can't go out and buy 3rd party programs designed specifically to do it, so there you have even more of a disadvantage and it changes from "battle of the bots" to "battle of the coders"

Botting in arctic would be won by those players who are superior programmers.  If I can write a C# program that can control 8, 10 or 12 CMUD's (which I can do) then I have a extreme advantage over any group of 8,10 or 12 players because guess what, my computer can think faster, react faster and process more data faster than your 8 human minds can.  This means I always win once I refine my code enough.  I just sit around all day, letting my bots run around in a group, slaughtering whatever and whoever I want. Not even AFK. literally just watching them.  laughing.  playing another game, while my computer slays this one for me.

I could do this with as many groups as I want, and if the "unique" IP becomes an issue, I can create VPN connections and create as many IP's as you need me to so you can't delete me.  It is very easy when you know how to do it.

That all being said, that isn't what Arctic is about.  Then, as someone mentioned, it just becomes a Solo RPG which are about as much fun as watching paint dry, without any beer, by yourself, in a hot house.  Arctic is as much about the interaction with friends as it is getting gear.  The reason MUD's were created to begin with was to try to create a D&D electronic environment.

Now, the argument then comes into play about "well no one is on to play with, so now either I can't play or I need to bot" which is a great argument against all that i've said and why I think it should be welcomed in some way that doesn't affect the people who are anti-bot.

All that being said, my suggestion for Botting (in any game but especially one like Arctic where programming knowledge can provide a huge advantage therefor making it extremely hard to balance) is have 2 game ports.

BotPort is for people who want to play solo, but still want to enjoy the entire game of ArcticMUD.  It can be for people who can't find a group on the HumanPort so they go here and can still curb the twitch we all get when we don't play the game often enough.  It can be for any number of reasons but the main goal is if you want to use bots to do LEGIT things (such as learn the game) you can do it here.  If you want to do NON-LEGIT things, like destroy level 15's with your 8 level 30's just because they have a piece of gear you want, you can do that too, on this port because if your not botting, your complaints about botting, on the botport, will go unnoticed. go play on humanport silly human!

HumanPort stays the same, with possibly even stricter rules.  IMM's who are spending their time specifically sniffing out players who are botting and stop it from happening.  Yes, this can be hard, but no, its not impossible especially if a human is actively trying to spot a bot.  Humans talk in groups, humans go afk and get drug around, etc etc.  Wizinvis + watching your 8 man = easy tell your botting.  "but what if we are on teamspeak, or skype, and not using grouptell"  you would be given the opportunity to let the IMM join that conversation and there you go, problem solved.  Any excuse someone who's botting can come up with is easily proven one way or the other.

I have always believed that allowing bots to mingle alongside the non-botters is extremely unfair and gives the botters an infinitely large advantage.   In order to satisfy both botters and non-botters alike, they should be provided different worlds so they can both be happy.

Now, if there are people out there who bot with the sole purpose of GETTING an advantage of people who do not bot and making those people's gaming experience less than exciting, those people are assholes and I don't care what they think.  My goal in life is to out you and get you banned (or abyssed, whatever)

Botting for legit reasons (like having fun experiencing the game, learning the game, noone else is on and I want to run Zone X, etc) are healthy and should be somehow welcomed, but not alongside the people who don't share the same advantages.

Is it possible to have 2 game ports? I don't know. 
Would anyone even play on the botting port?  I think yes.  I know I would. 
Would people play on both ports? I know I would.

I apologize if someone else already suggested this, I did not read every post in this thread.

Have fun!
Gyp



xellos

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2016, 10:59:53 AM »
skim reading this right now but, if it were me i would love seeing a bot with end game gear because they will be the easy kill. unless its fueling because he has less impact in a group then a bot and still an easy kill.

on a side note  - we once tried to invite a he who must not be named  to join our skype call when he was accusing us of this or that and he declined.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 11:23:25 AM by xellos »

Gnua

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2016, 11:17:59 AM »
First off though, they are the same thing.  At first it might not be, but it always eventually turns into being the same thing.  Eventually you need a healer, then you need a basher, then you need a mage, then you need a refresher, etc etc etc.  Then you think "bugger!,  I can't run these 5 characters myself, this is just too tiring and I just died because of not being able to alt tab or click over here fast enough", Now, enter the bot.  Starts off small, then grows.  Eventually, you're a bot master.

not necessarily.  some people bot but do not multi just to train their skills.  others multi and play 2 characters at once and stay that way for years and do not bot.  some people do both.  some do neither. they arent the same thing.  people who bot but do not multi is probably a symptom of a skill learn activities/rates that detracts from the fun of actual zoning.

Gyp

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2016, 11:30:40 AM »
First off though, they are the same thing.  At first it might not be, but it always eventually turns into being the same thing.  Eventually you need a healer, then you need a basher, then you need a mage, then you need a refresher, etc etc etc.  Then you think "bugger!,  I can't run these 5 characters myself, this is just too tiring and I just died because of not being able to alt tab or click over here fast enough", Now, enter the bot.  Starts off small, then grows.  Eventually, you're a bot master.

not necessarily.  some people bot but do not multi just to train their skills.  others multi and play 2 characters at once and stay that way for years and do not bot.  some people do both.  some do neither. they arent the same thing.  people who bot but do not multi is probably a symptom of a skill learn activities/rates that detracts from the fun of actual zoning.

Yes, there are always exceptions to the 'rule'.

I just feel if your goal is to zone, with multi's, then you will eventually bot.  It's just the natural evolution. 

If someone only wants to multi to train their skills, then perhaps how skills are trained should be re-evaluated so that they don't require that.  Such as Hide :)

SArT

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2016, 02:16:36 PM »
I never multi, but I bot 90% of the time as legend. I have about 25 pages of script if I print it out small.. something like "koboldrun" or "matthiasrun" will steam roll through on my legend thieves and take out ever rank mob. I even have ancient on an automated script.

Add that to a tick timer and I can line them up and minimize the window at work.

I have played that way for years on my legend thieves and really would not change if I returned.

I guess I have multi'd when I controlled Gulca's healer now and then.. but it was on his box that he watched at work.. and I had limited control.

I have given my scripts out to a couple of people so I know I am not the only one that does this for sure. The problem is that it gets really boring as you aren't really playing the game.

Just make it all legal and let the dreamers dream!

SArT

Gyp

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2016, 02:42:35 PM »
I never multi, but I bot 90% of the time as legend. I have about 25 pages of script if I print it out small.. something like "koboldrun" or "matthiasrun" will steam roll through on my legend thieves and take out ever rank mob. I even have ancient on an automated script.

Add that to a tick timer and I can line them up and minimize the window at work.

I have played that way for years on my legend thieves and really would not change if I returned.

I guess I have multi'd when I controlled Gulca's healer now and then.. but it was on his box that he watched at work.. and I had limited control.

I have given my scripts out to a couple of people so I know I am not the only one that does this for sure. The problem is that it gets really boring as you aren't really playing the game.

Just make it all legal and let the dreamers dream!

SArT

Not exactly a Bot IMO, but your advanced aliases sound cool :P

Oligo

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2016, 03:21:36 PM »
in any case, I would be glad to share codes on the forum and develop more advance coding if this is allowed.

You can put your scripts on github and share the link here. That's the best way to get community involvement and you get robust version control.

Zozen

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2016, 08:49:20 PM »
Oligo is like the guy who runs a marijuana grow syndicate and doesn't want it to be legalized unless he stands to benefit, since it infringes on his business.

Are you going to start renting out ips and bots in your proposed pay-to-multi scheme?

I lol'd. The irony of your analogy coming from you isn't lost on me.

Come up to Trinity County in Northern California.. gold rush.

Ericj

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2016, 08:36:11 AM »
I like the idea of having a clan bot or 2 people per IP.  The consistent thread I see is people worried that someone has their normal IP with a bot then a proxy with a bot.  I think imms can sniff out that stuff fairly easily and most players could.

I think if you are caught playing more than 2 people the penalty should be harsh, instant deletion.  Also, if you go with a clan bot or "registered" bot per IP those bots are not allowed to be involved in aggressive pk.  Of course, if someone ambushes you defend yourself but in general restricted from pk.  I'm not sure if the imms have a flag history they can look at like the PK board mortals see but would be interesting.

In general, the demographic who plays this game ages while no young blood comes in.  Having the ability to zone, explore and have a good time with limited real people I think is a good thing.  I saw a post earlyier from someone about as real players log on, the bots would rent.  That would be the ideal situation, gives people ability to zone and maintain momentum/excitement.  I think we've all logged on and saw barely any people online, much less clan mates and just decided to go spend our time doing something else.

Excited to hear further thoughts on this topic and also am glad to see an open discussion about multiple things that have been going on in arctic for years.

jingo

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2016, 11:47:13 AM »
Also, if you go with a clan bot or "registered" bot per IP those bots are not allowed to be involved in aggressive pk.  Of course, if someone ambushes you defend yourself but in general restricted from pk.  I'm not sure if the imms have a flag history they can look at like the PK board mortals see but would be interesting.
They want less immortal involvement, not more.  If you allow multi-ing you're going to have to allow it in PK.  Flags tend to be a mess and there are plenty of actions that invite PK but are not actually PK (such as healing mobs someone is fighting, or finishing a zone someone is halfway through).

Gramm

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2016, 07:00:15 PM »
taking a step back form mortal affairs, doesnt mean to relinquish control of the game. it would be really nice if we could go a full wipe without having a need for any divine intervention. But that is likely a pipe dream, where there is a will there is a way, and some people are very willing to take things much further than they ever need to go. 

We just need to do a better job on the mortal side of things maintaining a little civility and self control i think personally, 90% of the stuff that ends up going too far causes people to end up quitting. The imms are certainly going to be on board with loss prevention in terms of playerbase I would think, so dont do anything that causes players to quit, like innsit folks and or make 6 bots and chase around solo players, and im sure you will never see a need for intervention.

Im not thrilled at the idea of NEEDING an autobot to defend me from other autobots... but I would do it if we had to, is every player going to be capable of running them though? is that really going to benefit newer players at all having some pk obsessed botmasters running around without control or some semblance of authority to keep them in line?
and yes there ARE newer players.

Its a nice pipe dream, i share it with you, but thats all it is. until we learn self control anyways.