Author Topic: Multi-ing / Botting  (Read 24477 times)

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Jorquin

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Multi-ing / Botting
« on: August 05, 2016, 06:16:48 AM »
This is the thread to discuss this topic. For the time being its unlikely any member of staff will weigh in on the conversation.

I have only created this thread to prevent this highly contentious issue from blocking positive ideas from being presented in other discussion threads.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 06:18:50 AM by Jorquin »

Jorake

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2016, 07:31:48 AM »
Make it legal for a wipe. Let's see what happens. Each person is allowed to play 2 chars. More than 2 results in the entire setup being deleted.

It's been established that there is no stopping it. So many ways around it. Hell I have 2 phones and 2 tablets. One phone/tablet is personal the others are for work. 4 diff ips. Blow torch installed and I'm good to go. You can't even really ban anyone anymore. It's so easy to get around. Then just stay low key etc.

I think as long as you don't have bobs or joes running around with full groups. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal

lurker

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2016, 08:38:00 AM »
Give it a try for a wipe.  What is the worst that could happen?

Gnua

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2016, 10:18:10 AM »
i like the idea of a single registered multi (sidekick?).  maybe a sidekick could be
 - level capped at 25 or 29
 - unable to pick up 'decent' gear (i think reed had a very good definition)
 - damage done reduction vs another player
 - reduced healing done on a character who cannot quit
 - rank cap at 11
 - take up 3 group slots

the rule against multi isnt being enforced and so the 'honest' people are at a considerable disadvantage.
on a similar note, bot skilling seems to be a sign of ridiculously unreasonable skill learn rates/requirements for legend. banish, field medic, mend, brew, scribe, arcane barrier, spellcraft, etc...  i wouldnt mind if some of those skills were deleted or simply not required for legend
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 12:24:45 PM by gnua »

Gnua

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2016, 10:38:51 AM »
i just read reed's idea of a 'registered clan bot' and really like it and hope that solutions can be found to whatever complications / challenges such a setup might bring.

Oligo

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2016, 12:41:31 PM »
Make it legal for a wipe. Let's see what happens. Each person is allowed to play 2 chars. More than 2 results in the entire setup being deleted.
To put limits on it is basically making it illegal.

Make it legal, no restrictions, and see what happens. Everything else is just speculative conjecture without data-driven decisions.

Rinad

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2016, 01:06:41 PM »
I think if it was to be allowed, that a requirement is to include on the forum some basic code for various clients.  Because seriously, it seems it only benefits those who have more time on their hands and can actually write this shit.  Me I'm lucky if I can even play, let alone spending a few days writing code.   So if you can make it so that people all have  somewhat of a level playing field with this then sure.   Otherwise, it seems it only benefits those who've done it in the past and have all the "work" done.  Sorry but I'm over 40 as are probably most of us, which usually means any free time is either devoted to family or other projects, so if I have an hour or two, I'd rather be playing then spending that time trying to figure out how to make a bot work. 

That's my .02 worth.

Jorake

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2016, 01:21:10 PM »
Idk about code. I've never botted. I just play both chars. Type for both. I have an assist alias depending on what I use.

reed23

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2016, 03:31:17 PM »
*Moved my post from the other thread*

I really like the idea of allowing everyone to play 2 characters from their single IP.  If anyone is caught playing any more than those 2, harsh consequences could be laid down.

Current Problems - People are already botting.  Whether you want to have your head in the clouds like Zozen or not, it happened, is happening, and will continue to happen regardless of the rules.  If a given group of players is not botting, they are at a severe disadvantage to the clans that have not only a bot, but a google doc allowing anyone in the clan to login to that proxy to access that tank/healer/etc.  Also, as the wipe grows past the 6-8 week mark, you have had basically 3 options the last few wipes.  1.  Join Core to have people to group with.  2.  Quit because you can't form a group.  3.  Bot.  There is nothing wrong with joining Core and they have done an impressive job continuing to zone throughout wipes and are generally accepting of players joining their zoning groups or even clan membership.

Benefits of Playing 2 Characters - From about 2007 through 2012, I played 2 characters manually from 2 laptops.  Those were the most enjoyable wipes of my way-too-long arctic career.  You are able to explore the game, learn new zones, form groups, and have a lot more flexibility (obviously) when playing 2 characters.  It will even the playing field for those who have not been playing multiple characters.  The clans that have benefitted over the years from bots are most likely not running 15 bots to gain an advantage.  Instead, they probably have had a main tank, healer, and a couple other bots on call in case there are not clan members who can log at that second.  When there are 3-5 real people around wanting to do something, they probably would log 1-2 bots and bam, you are off to have a good time (especially if the 3-5 players didn't have healing & tanking capabilities).  When other clan members logged and wanted to play, the bot or two would rent to allow the real person into the group.  As the wipe ages, people are likely to fade off which is to be expected.  However, if each person were allowed 2 characters, you could literally have 2-4 people and be able to still play the game at a high level.  There is no question you can do a lot of the game content on a legend shaman and paladin which has been over-quoted, but the fact of the matter is you have to do a lot of tedious prepping and have a much higher risk of massripping at endzone fights than if you had 4-6 characters in those same situations.  If we were allowed to play 2 characters at once right now, I would currently be playing with 1-2 friends to maybe do some exploring before the wipe starts.  Because that is not in the cards right now, i'll sit on the side lines until there is a new wipe announced and try to rally the troops.  Mid to late wipe mud activity is a big problem and this proposal would keep people around a lot longer than the current structure.

Lastly - I'd like to point out that clans that have only a couple of humans which control 8-10 man groups will get slaughtered in PK most of the time.  There are scripts out there that can make it possible to control 7-10 characters at once, but if those characters were ambushed or went up against 10 real players in a PK, the 10 humans will win the vast majority of the time.  I know from experience.

A couple other alternative ideas i'll throw out that I don't know if are possible, decent ideas, or enforceable - Put a max amount of bots per clan.  Each clan can have 2-3 bots.  (What about non-clanned people? - If you want to have bot accessibility, save up 25k and make a clan tag).  Or - Allow the multi character at a certain point (after 1 month of the wipe, or make it available once legend is reached, etc.)

The aging playerbase has less and less time to dedicate to arctic.  Having to search and beg to have people to group with isn't what many of us have the energy or time for anymore.  That is one reason wipes die so fast.

gulca

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2016, 05:26:46 PM »
Idk about code. I've never botted. I just play both chars. Type for both. I have an assist alias depending on what I use.

you are multi-ing. bot usually mean there's no active player behind the client side.

as noted, you don't need any scripts to play more than 1 char. just fast reading on different screens and fast typing.

a bot doesn't necessary mean multi-ing either. I would be an example, where I just run my botting script to gather some coins or skill some random skills. or find people's multi from who list. I may occasionally look at my tell log to talk to people but 10000 lines might scroll pass and I wouldn't have read a single line.

 I'm very bad at switching screens, so I almost never multi.

in any case, I would be glad to share codes on the forum and develop more advance coding if this is allowed.

my enjoyment over the last few years was mainly developing scripts and see how far I can push them within Arctic. yes I treat Arctic as a solo game with occasional chatting or group ing.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 05:32:29 PM by gulca »

Pyder

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2016, 03:15:55 PM »
Just for fun (never used it for anything other than testing purposes), i made a completely independent desktop application that rolled chars for me, and saved them (in other words, looked at the stats and decided it was decent and picked a new name from a list and started to roll another one, and kept going until it was out of names on the list). It's not really that hard to make completely automated programs that play mud for you if you have some basic programming knowledge.

Basic for example "healer-slave" code/scripting is not hard to do either... I program stuff like this all day, every day, in my job... But what i did with my char rolling bot was more an exercise in "i'm bored, can i do this?" than a "i want an automated slave to play a game for me!"....

Can't really see the point in allowing bots/multying.... i mean really, get some friends!

I have been sidelined a few times because a group is full of bots, and i don't really like the idea.

But on the other hand, if this is scribed into the game rules that one bot is allowed to have, i could concider the idea of supplying some basic coding or scripting or whatever if that's what people really want.... If not, you can always give me a holler, and i'll join your group with my humanly played char and we'll go do some awesome stuff, or wipe gloriously together and laugh about it :)

// SwedeAndy
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 03:18:01 PM by Pyder »

fran

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2016, 07:10:50 PM »
  One thing people keep ignoring on botting remains that if legal the game will divert in 20 bots outside each inn.   Someone will get bored and it will happen...people been working on bot armies for a while now with varying degrees of success. 

Oligo

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2016, 08:23:22 PM »
  One thing people keep ignoring on botting remains that if legal the game will divert in 20 bots outside each inn.

The amount of fear mongering and ignorance is astounding sometimes.

Gramm

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2016, 10:51:17 AM »
Bottom line, people are going to abuse the hell out of it, not all of us, i would personally love to be hiding my legend druid behind both of my legend barbarians and killing tons of stuff.
But if i decided i just wanted to have my solo barbarian killing celestial temple, whats to stop someone from logging 6 basher bots just to come piss in my cereal?
What is to stop someone who knows all those really elite loads from loading up all the limited items on characters that are automated and not even played by a real player?

To say have NO restrictions is bloody nonsense and you ALL know it!
to make the naysayers more comfortable a few ideas that i know would make me comfortable are
#1 make people register their bot chars.
#2 bot chars cant wear low limited gear
#3 Maybe you could make it so that if someone is pk flagged their bot char just stops responding to all commands, like a built in autostun or something. basically just dont use multis and bots in pk or allow, otherwise its a hugely unfair advantage to someone like myself that inspects welds and doesnt write code to have someone who does write code chase me down with a bot army.

if people didnt have the potential to run around playerkilling the shit out of all the people that dont write code for a living just because they can.... and didnt horde the nice gear on their "bot #3 and 4",
I think it would be bloody amazing to run around even with my #2 legend barbarian running around in just shop gear to aid my druid with real gear.

but yeah thats just my two cents as someone who thinks bots CAN add to this game without taking too much away from it... protect the limited items for peoples main NON BOT chars, and punish bot abusers that just run around pking everyone with a 4 man basher bot squad and a healer with extreme malice.

Pk is fine and dandy, but if someone with gulca's codewriting abilities decided to make a full group pk squad, i personally would quit without delay. call it fearmongering or whatever, its true someone will abuse it.
To therefore invite botting without ANY restrictions, is to trust in the playerbase without fear of even a single person abusing it.  NOT LIKELY
Restrictions need to be in place, so that when some asshat does go crazy and start eradicating a bunch of people every single time they log without a care in the world for actually learning the zones or game outside of mastering pk, or the shared experience of the other players for that matter, punishment can be dealt swiftly and justly.

I am pro botting/multiplaying, but only if there is a system in place to spank all the idiots who would be... idiots. Obviously peaceful zoner bot/multiplaying types would get spanked a lot less than the fools that would use this glorious gift to ruin the game for others in a perfect world...


eddiex

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Re: Multi-ing / Botting
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2016, 11:46:32 AM »
I think in general most players have abided by the established rule regarding multiing (no multiing). There are a few people who currently break the rules by char sharing, multiing, botting regularly.

As has been stated, the issue is nearly impossible to police.

I don't believe the all or nothing approach works. It does not address people's concerns about turning Arctic into a solo adventure game.  On the flip side if we maintain a complete ban, that does not address the issue that players are at a competitive disadvantage to rule breakers.

Those who fear monger the idea of allowing botting/multiing should consider two things:
A) a group of 5 or 10 real people could already sit outside an inn right now with triggers on anyone semi afk if they so pleased.
B)In the past an asshat policy was enforced pretty ironhandedly. The current staff said while they would like to reduce their involvement, it is not a free pass to be an asshole. Ergo-pretty safe to assume a innsitting not squad would be dealt with.

For those who say that one character is strong enough and it's unnecessary.
A) People already do it, go unpunished and receive a competitive advantage as reward for their rule breaking.
B) altering the game entirely so it's suitable for smaller groups, i.e. 5 mans is much more work than just allowing a second character per ip. It would also make the rule breaking player even stronger because it would require even less  bots to achieve the same thing meaning easier steamrollin for them.
C)being capable of doing most zones on 2  not necessarily make that an enjoyable experience. I can two man storms or some of pax but it will take significantly longer than with a normal sized group.

In the current proposition only the people who break the rules and the vehemently opposed get what they want.

I am interested to see what portion of the population represents people who sit somewhere in the middle on the issue of multiing/botting.

I think in the spirit of competitive fairness each player should be able to play 2 chars from their single ip. Imms can see players ips and track this fairly easy I think. I think most players will conform to the established rule as they do now. The people who use more than 2 chars will maintain doing what they already do or conform.  In the end the edge an unregulated rule breaker had over rule abiding players will be reduced by a compromise like this.

TL:DR Try something different. The current standard of absolutely no multiing/botting has been around for long enough. Try anything (preferably 2 chars per player).
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 11:56:02 AM by eddiex »