A Reasonable Discussion of Recent Stat Fixes.

[Jorake]

I agree with the multiple character thing. Stats were never the issue of balancing. I'm not even sure why they would be messed with.

I do agree with the group limit size. With legends broke as f u ck, it won't matter for most t hings. Can still solo certain zones with certain classes. Can still 3man 50% of zones. And can still 5-6man things like ochre/5head etc.

As far as learning. Level a white robe, get tons of int/learn and have em study that one spell.. that i can't remember right now! Then it'll help others learn when get books etc.

Maybe we shouldnt be able to get 25int mages and 23con tanks. 20 isn't a bad rolling cap though. 

[Zozen]

I have enjoyed the decrease power of characters and groups overall by the stat and group size change.

What this means is that people are having to buy +stat rank instead of +slot or +damage if they want to get their int or str or whatever high. Choices make the game more balanced and better.

[Gnua]

The stat lowering seems unnecessary unless a lot more +stat gear was added. 

I was under the impression that under the old stat system, +stat gear was often thrown away leading to the conclusion there was more supply of +stat than demand for +stat. The lowering would in theory increase the demand for +stat and so bring balance without the need to introduce +stat gear.

Though from my personal experience +str and +con and +learn was always in short supply and the other stats were always discarded as trash.  with an overall lowering of stats, I would expect +str and +con and +learn to be in even shorter supply unless some gear of that type gets added.

[kmark101]

I have enjoyed the decrease power of characters and groups overall by the stat and group size change.

You have probably enjoyed it cause you were rolling with a smaller crew.
Here, we would have to sit people to the bench due to the group size limit, who then lose their interest in the game. Think this change is actually removing ppl from the playerbase right now and totally not necessary.
As for the pvp aspect, I always loved 20vs20 battles of the past, so it's even worse there..

[Alecto]

But couldn't those "benched" people make a small group of their own?  Groups of 4-5 seem ideal for powerlevelling, while the 8-mans are for popping gear and books.

[Valenore]

I was under the impression that under the old stat system, +stat gear was often thrown away leading to the conclusion there was more supply of +stat than demand for +stat. The lowering would in theory increase the demand for +stat and so bring balance without the need to introduce +stat gear.

There are two reasons +stat gear had low demand before: playerbase size and utility.  The stat change doesn't really effect either of these.

A player will wear a piece of gear if it is better than what they currently have.  Because of this, the size of the playerbase has the strongest correlation to the value of gear.  +stat gear was often thrown away because with a small playerbase there is enough good equipment that most dedicated players could get +spell slot, +dmg, or +multiple stat gear.  Lowering character stats doesn't really change that. 

On the utility side a lot of stats have threshold value or situational value beyond which there isn't a reason to seek it out.  A primary example is +wis to hit a particular spell slot bonus.  After that you don't really care.  Or for most casters +int is only a concern for learning books which is a rare event.  Once you are spelled you don't care about the int.  +con always has value because every increment gives hps.  Go back to the old system of +con/hp thresholds and the value of +con would go down.  +str always has value because it determines what weapons you can wield/offhand. 

[Zozen]

I was under the impression that under the old stat system, +stat gear was often thrown away leading to the conclusion there was more supply of +stat than demand for +stat. The lowering would in theory increase the demand for +stat and so bring balance without the need to introduce +stat gear.

There are two reasons +stat gear had low demand before: playerbase size and utility.  The stat change doesn't really effect either of these.

A player will wear a piece of gear if it is better than what they currently have.  Because of this, the size of the playerbase has the strongest correlation to the value of gear.  +stat gear was often thrown away because with a small playerbase there is enough good equipment that most dedicated players could get +spell slot, +dmg, or +multiple stat gear.  Lowering character stats doesn't really

I'm seeing people that would normally wear +dam in nearly every slot using more str items to wield big primes. Lowering their overall damage.   

[kmark101]

But couldn't those "benched" people make a small group of their own?  Groups of 4-5 seem ideal for powerlevelling, while the 8-mans are for popping gear and books.

No they just log off, like from the dawn of Arctic - not really interested unless you are in the main group (except for levelling, but most are over that and wants to group)

[Jorake]

Well bapt those people! This is a nice way to force folks to break up a bit. Maybe some bigger clans will have people branch off and form their own clan etc. Start learning things for themselves or putting their current knowledge to use.

[Valenore]

I'm seeing people that would normally wear +dam in nearly every slot using more str items to wield big primes. Lowering their overall damage.

Unless they aren't that bright or are spreading gear for clan mates they are not lowering their overall damage.  They are using +str to wield a weapon that gives more overall damage gained than the +dmg gear they have access to with a lesser weapon.  i.e. 3d7 +2 primary and +3 dmg > 3d6 2/2 primary with +5 dmg. 

This isn't a situation that is unique to the stat reduction although the stat reduction may amplify it.  There are some very nice weapons in the game that require a 28 str to primary (and plenty that are 24+).  If you get one of those you may have to make the decision between +str to wield that weapon and +dmg you may be able to wear otherwise.  A smart player will optimize based on what gives the most damage overall, possibly what is easiest to reload, and if one path benefits other clan mates (maybe you lose a damage but clanmate always on gets that gear so net for group is an increase in damage).

[Zozen]

Before they would need +5-7 str to max out or less to wield those weapons. Now they need +10-12.... Not sure you comprehend what that means.

[Valenore]

Before they would need +5-7 str to max out or less to wield those weapons. Now they need +10-12.... Not sure you comprehend what that means.

Reread what I wrote.  The comprehension issue seems to be on your side since your statement is irrelevant to what I said.  Given an option between +str, better primary, and less +dmg gear and less strength, worse primary, but more +dmg gear there 2nd grade math will allow you to arrive at the optimal configuration of gear.  This is true before and after the change. 

If that idea escapes you, I doubt any further detail on my part will help. 

[Rednax]

I think what he means to say is the str required to wield a heavy prim could easily be gained without having to sacrifice so much dam in other places. Throw two +2 str items on an old mino and he'd have 27-28ish str just like that. Meanwhile with the str rolls capping out at around 18-19 now you're gonna need 10 str to hit 28 str which is at least 3-5 items. There's a lot of lost dam there.

an option between +str, better primary, and less +dmg gear and less strength, worse primary, but more +dmg gear

My takeaway from this:
In the old system, a geared char would only need a select few str items to get to 28 str. He'd be able to wield a 28 prim. The rest of those slots could be filled with dam.
In the new system, a geared char is going to need lots more str items to get to 28 str. He'd have to sacrifice some of the dam from those other slots just to get enough str to wield his prim.

Plus there's going to be more competition for +stat gear. You may need to sacrifice even more to get your desired str as some of the +2 and other items are gobbled up by other players.

[Chisul]

Let's not forget the cheap and dirty Stat ranks. Players may need to choose ranks to offset the change in stat or damage. In my experience, the most game breakI g chars are achieved through rank purchases...especially legend ranks. I think this change may mean the end of +900H tanks, obliterating bursts, steelskin everything, and casters that never have to worry about mem times. One tick out of combat and most legendary casters are full str. Not that I feel the game needs more mem time, but watching a caster drop thousands of damage then recup it all with no penalty (ie having to rest and mem) is disgusting.

[Malaki]

So like maybe they just wanted every other char to be like mages with the casting level thing.  Except with like stats, you know.